Footwork or retreat?

[WoodenYummy]

Hey Red Boat Fellas, I'm not in total disagreement with what you're saying. Have you ever seen the fight between Mighty Mo and that tiny Thai Kickboxer? Google it, it is really sick! KaluKali or something.... anyway, its something with alot of K's in it. This tiny guy wrecks mighty mo when he finally lands the last hit. But until that point he dances around the ring avoiding this monster. Maybe this would prove both of our points? The little guy wrecks the big fella, but he had to avoid him continuously until the right moment... Just a thought. I just re-read this whole thread from the first post, and it strikes me that alot of the posts from you two seem to focus more on the psychological aspect, particularly the bull fighter analogies. Maybe that is where we began to differ.. I think you are dead on in describing the mindset one needs to have in those situations, however I was a grad student of Sociology so I don't buy any of the Psycho babble. LOL Point well taken, thanks to both of you for your input. So Gray, this little white chick really handed it to you, huh? What was she an expert in? How does she ultimately serve it to you? (Take-downs, centerline strikes) In other words what does she use to overcome you (a bigger opponent). Please try to be somewhat specific, not just "she uses excellent technique". Thanks guys! Hey since you're down in KY, do you know if there are any WC schools in TN? Of any lineage?

[Ali. R]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBa9B...eature=related

Good find, but man that hurts…

Take care,


Ali Rahim,

[Phil Redmond]

Though we all have different opinions, methods, or whatever we all will use what works for us as individuals. The bottom line is that I use what works best for me. I know everyone else does/should. And yes I can also fight down the middle. I did so in full contact when the chance arouse. I just prefer not to.

[Phil Redmond]

Yeah I know especially if the guy is bigger then you might get body slammed right? Hey maybe a lower center of gravity could help..

I have one already. Old school horse training from the 70's until now

Yeah one’s size can really give you something to think about, and it might hurt a little too, huh..Ali Rahim

Not really. Every one I've fought outside the ring was a big guy. No problem.
OK. your turn . . .(notice how I can post without getting personal?)

[Liddel]

Im in total agreement with Woody...

It's a move, not a whole fighting strategy... Jeez.

But if the smaller guy is more skilled he will have a better chance against someone with a higher center of gravity

I feel you're always talking about being in a favourable position during a fight Ali...
How about when your smaller and less skilled, would you still avoid stepping back ?

and lets not get carried away with crazy analogies...

like a Pit-bull vs. a Collie

Ali, ive lived with a Pitbull breeder here in New Zealand.... IMO this is a crazy misplaced analogy...pitbulls are inherently agressive and are born with a physical advantage over Collies at least as well as most other dogs IMO... from the muscles to the structure of the Jaw...lockjaw is a perfect example of how they have evolved towards being more suited to hunting and fighting.

Perhaps Pitbull vs Rottie is better, cause rotties are just as aggresive in conflict but have size over Pitbulls...but even then it would depend on the dog i suppose

if the Matador turns and runs, or steps back...its his @$$

I cant believe someone hasnt called you on this and i hate to be Captain obvious here Gray but..... even if i agreed with the fact that if the matador stepped back its his @ss (which i dont)

Bulls aim at the red cape mate not at the Matador himself, and he lets the bull touch the cape, are you willing to take a shot from a big guy just to remain in the center ?.....
so its not like us fighting a bigger guy at all....unless

IMO if the Matador wore a red suit that would be a more appropriate analogy but it would be a differnt ball game for the matador LOL

Standing his ground would be the most stupid thing he could do IMO.

You either face the attack and fight or you turn and run (flight)

Or you do what you need to do to survive long enough to make your own attack.

Just to clarify, are you saying Grey you fight the Bigger guys exactly the same way as guys your size or smaller ? or would you change your game plan a bit ?

I fight down the center (im not a TWC guy for clirification) but i fully realise like Phil does that there is a time that one would be foolish to do so and that time is against someone with a big strength and size advantage....pick your time to use the center nothing more nothing less.

DREW

[Liddel]

Stand your ground, but at what cost ?

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=1z3g54AcQEc

[Vajramusti]

Perhaps Pitbull vs Rottie is better, cause rotties are just as aggresive in conflict but have size over Pitbulls...but even then it would depend on the dog i suppose
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I dont want to go off topic... but though Rotties are bigger and aggressive--most of the time-best not to send a Rottie anywhere near a pit bull if you love a Rottie.
A pit bull doesnt even have to be big- a 50 or 60 pound pit bull is an awesome character.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

Perhaps Pitbull vs Rottie is better, cause rotties are just as aggresive in conflict but have size over Pitbulls...but even then it would depend on the dog i suppose
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I dont want to go off topic... but though Rotties are bigger and aggressive--most of the time-best not to send a Rottie anywhere near a pit bull if you love a Rottie.
A pit bull doesnt even have to be big- a 50 or 60 pound pit bull is an awesome character.

joy chaudhuri

And that’s right on point and the gist of my analogy…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Im in total agreement with Woody...
I feel you're always talking about being in a favourable position during a fight Ali...
How about when your smaller and less skilled, would you still avoid stepping back ?

I think this part is really significant to this whole thread and has been at the heart of it from the very first post.

I cant believe someone hasnt called you on this and i hate to be Captain obvious here Gray....

Thats because they have been paying attention.

Just to clarify, are you saying Grey you fight the Bigger guys exactly the same way as guys your size or smaller ? ...

YAHTZEE!!!...its about time you figured it out.

I fight down the center (im not a TWC guy for clirification) DREW

Im glad you clarified this because as I was saying ... The whole Matador comparison was one of MENTALITY as well as the physicality part. And even though we have different lineages, arts approaches or whatever...the tools are basically the same, the forms are basically the same, the science it basically the same and you can disagree with it or not but in Wing Chun there is all kinds of discussion about jamming , wedging, structure , crowding space, and sensitivity that we all have agreed upon in one thread or another.
BUT...at the heart of the very first post of this thread...and in every argument to support that first post...there is a general 'concern' about eating a straight punch from a big guy.
IN THE WOO FAI CHING SYSTEM a question like this would be recognized as being mentally conflicted with what needs to be done because of that 'concern'. This 'concern' is why there is this science of the 'flanking step'.
In the Woo Fai Ching System we have a concept of the 'Bracing Step'. What is this? This is how we step into the mouth of the tiger. Stepping in makes our OPPONENT concerned about getting hit.
Earlier there was a post something about ' stepping in to keep the bigger opponent from building momentum that would snowball and eventually overwhelm you' or something like this. This is what we call Attacking the Attack in the Woo Fai Ching System. This will not be possible if you 'step back to stay just out of range in case the hands fail.'
In the Woo Fai Ching system we have also said that the 'feet follow the hands'. So if im bridging then Im stepping into it also and my structure is right in the pocket doing the rest.
The feet are not following the hands when you try to bridge while flanking or stepping back.. The hands go out and forward to 'ask' but the feet move back? This is not to say that a bridge can not be made but its not one that I want to cross.
In the Woo Fai Ching System , and other Ip Man lines, we also fight off the square which allows for double arm control(Chi-Sao). So we count on having to deal with BOTH of our opponents hands. When you have an art that inherently 'tries not to have to deal with the other hand if possible', with flanking and stepping back, then double-arm control will not work.

The same way that all of you are reluctant to admit that the 'Matador Metaphor' was comparable is the same way you are reluctant to admit why you have a whole 'flanking science'.
You are concerned about eating the punch as most of you have said.
And you should be.

[Liddel]

Perhaps Pitbull vs Rottie is better, cause rotties are just as aggresive in conflict but have size over Pitbulls...but even then it would depend on the dog i suppose
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont want to go off topic... but though Rotties are bigger and aggressive--most of the time-best not to send a Rottie anywhere near a pit bull if you love a Rottie.
A pit bull doesnt even have to be big- a 50 or 60 pound pit bull is an awesome character.

joy chaudhuri

Fair enough call Joy.....im a Pitbull fan too. But Pitbull vs Collie is a no contest IMO which is whyb i thought it a bit off....

I agree with your (and now Ali's) point about charcter but itll only take you so far in reality huh ?

DREW

[Liddel]

YAHTZEE!!!...its about time you figured it out.

Treating every opponent as the same is dumb IMO. Each has differences that need to be acknowledged when fighting and its not only size thats a factor, style is also a concern.

I.E You wouldnt want to behave the same way in a fight against a Kickboxer as you would against a grappler.... Tools are the same but Strategy must change.

Thinking othewise shows lack of realistic experience IMHO. From H2H to armies it matters not. Go read the art of War.

The whole Matador comparison was one of MENTALITY as well as the physicality part.

You state they hold thier ground, and if they move back "Its thier @ss" end quote!

I post a vid of a Matador moving back alot and surviving ! and in the same clip another matador holding his ground and getting killed.

I rest my case on the use of useless analogies.

at the heart of the very first post of this thread...and in every argument to support that first post...there is a general 'concern' about eating a straight punch from a big guy.

I believe Woody posted a "round punch" from an ex bouncer training partner of his whos round punch "you wouldnt want to eat" sure ive sparred guys that had massive power, so i know what hes on about.

Its no concern like "tough cowards" . just a point that you may not want to crash the center right away and that stepping back away from such an opponent can be done to feel or wait for a good opening...

In the Woo Fai Ching system we have also said that the 'feet follow the hands'. So if im bridging then Im stepping into it also and my structure is right in the pocket doing the rest.
The feet are not following the hands when you try to bridge while flanking or stepping back.. This is not to say that a bridge can not be made but its not one that I want to cross.

If you move back and he moves foward the space between you is the same as it was prior to the movement unless either fighter has a smaller or bigger step relative to each other...
Its being mentioned that to stay in the pocket requires a half step so you still have support structure and range to reach opponent - you must have missed that part, go back.... myself woody and our HFY friend all mentioned this.

In the Woo Fai Ching System , and other Ip Man lines, we also fight off the square which allows for double arm control(Chi-Sao). So we count on having to deal with BOTH of our opponents hands. When you have an art that inherently 'tries not to have to deal with the other hand if possible', with flanking and stepping back, then double-arm control will not work.

IMO and with respect Gray, if you have a good foundation in Chum Kui - wether your sqaure or having one side foward will not effect you ability to use both hands with the VT stance . The quote seems like its coming from a SLT junkie..and i know you have more Gray, ive seen you in vids.

The same way that all of you are reluctant to admit that the 'Matador Metaphor' was camparable is the same way you are reluctant to admit why you have a whole 'flanking science'.
You are concerned about eating the punch as most of you have said.
And you should be.

This smacks of talking down to me. Ive never have... nor ever will i use the term flanking... i personally dont like it am im not of TWC lineage so its never being part of my system.

I can take a punch gray, ive had my nose broke in a 2 on one fight and survived. After i got hit during the fight (sucker punched actually) with blood pouring....
to remain in a position to get hit in the nose again was not smart. I stepped back gaining distance slipping a round punch to the face and bridged in to land an elbow which made one guy run after the reciever fell.

So you can see why im ok with stepping back in certain situations.

Where you are getting hung up is that you think you can move foward ALL THE TIME where as im saying its ok to believe there are situations that require you move away from danger before you bridge into range and do all those things you advocate.

For someone that does a system with a BJ form to make up for unfavorable situations where things dont go your way.... it seems funny that you think everything works all of the time.

Drew

[Liddel]

Then why worry about getting slammed if you’re well connected to the floor?

Hope you never face the Gold medal weight lifter from Beijing Ali. He lifted like 251 KGs mate. I weigh 75 soaking wet.

So forgive me if i step back when he rushes me LOL

Ill give a few inches and take a mile while you live in fantasy land where you can fireball bigger opponents to hold your ground.
Crazy LOL

DREW

[Graychuan]

Treating every opponent as the same is dumb IMO. Each has differences that need to be acknowledged when fighting and its not only size thats a factor, style is also a concern.

I.E You wouldnt want to behave the same way in a fight against a Kickboxer as you would against a grappler.... Tools are the same but Strategy must change.

Thinking othewise shows lack of realistic experience IMHO. From H2H to armies it matters not. Go read the art of War.



You state they hold thier ground, and if they move back "Its thier @ss" end quote!

I post a vid of a Matador moving back alot and surviving ! and in the same clip another matador holding his ground and getting killed.

I rest my case on the use of useless analogies.



I believe Woody posted a "round punch" from an ex bouncer training partner of his whos round punch "you wouldnt want to eat" sure ive sparred guys that had massive power, so i know what hes on about.

Its no concern like "tough cowards" . just a point that you may not want to crash the center right away and that stepping back away from such an opponent can be done to feel or wait for a good opening...



If you move back and he moves foward the space between you is the same as it was prior to the movement unless either fighter has a smaller or bigger step relative to each other...
Its being mentioned that to stay in the pocket requires a half step so you still have support structure and range to reach opponent - you must have missed that part, go back.... myself woody and our HFY friend all mentioned this.



IMO and with respect Gray, if you have a good foundation in Chum Kui - wether your sqaure or having one side foward will not effect you ability to use both hands with the VT stance . The quote seems like its coming from a SLT junkie..and i know you have more Gray, ive seen you in vids.



This smacks of talking down to me. Ive never have... nor ever will i use the term flanking... i personally dont like it am im not of TWC lineage so its never being part of my system.

I can take a punch gray, ive had my nose broke in a 2 on one fight and survived. After i got hit during the fight (sucker punched actually) with blood pouring....
to remain in a position to get hit in the nose again was not smart. I stepped back gaining distance slipping a round punch to the face and bridged in to land an elbow which made one guy run after the reciever fell.

So you can see why im ok with stepping back in certain situations.

Where you are getting hung up is that you think you can move foward ALL THE TIME where as im saying its ok to believe there are situations that require you move away from danger before you bridge into range and do all those things you advocate.

For someone that does a system with a BJ form to make up for unfavorable situations where things dont go your way.... it seems funny that you think everything works all of the time.

Drew

Wrong again Drew. Ive even agreed with you about taking one or a half step back. Look at my first 2-3 posts, guy. You will see it all.
Your problem is you are trying to make this all about you when I have been addressing the original post. You even said yourself you are not a TWC guy so what are you all flustered about? And as far as me talking down to you....well Im just sharing knowlegde from our system , mane. Its in the thread for all to see.

'It plain ta see,
Ya can't fade me.
Imma be a Chunna fo' life.

[Liddel]

Hey look my bad Grey, more power to ya.

Best of luck in training and life.
Peace out.

DREW

[WoodenYummy]

Hey Drew, thanks for your input. I hear what you are saying.

I am beginning to see what Couch was trying to tell me now... There is no use in debating things when people take this approach. An old woman I know used to say "Never argue with an idiot, because you can't tell who the A-hole is". It makes more sense to me with each passing day... You can't get respect if you don't give any!

Regardless, thanks to EVERYBODY for posting on this thread, even those of you who refused to address my questions. I'm not very internet savy, but I've learned alot about online forums in the past 48hrs. LOL

Did ANYONE find that Mighty Mo clip I mentioned, it is SICK!