Old Fujianese Translations of Wing Chun Terms?

[Kevin Huang]

I'm Taiwanese, so I speak a variant of the old Fujian dialect.

Taiwanese is also known as "Fukienese", albeit with a slightly different pronunciation. It's very different in vocabulary and grammar from Mandarin or Cantonese.

Anyway, I have noticed that a lot of the old Wing Chun terms make perfect sense in Taiwanese. My Taiwanese is not complete, as I was never formally educated in that dialect but spoke it at home as my 1st language.

So if anybody can shed further linguistic examples, that would be greatly appreciated.

Here are some examples:

Pak Sao (Cantonese) = "Pah Tsao" (Taiwanese) = "hit away".

Tan Sao (Cantonese) = "Tun Tsao" (Taiwanese) = "Swallow away". Ngo Cho Kun (5 Ancestor Fist) uses this exact same terminology for Tan Sao.

Bong Sao (Cantonese) = "Pong Tsao" (Taiwanese) = "carry away" (as in to lift a big pot away).

Kiu Sao (Cantonese) = "Kiu Tsao" (Taiwanese), which translates into "pull away".

Huen Sao (Cantonese) = "Tng Tsao" (Taiwanese) = "turn away"


Si Lim Tao (Cantonese) = "Siu Lum Tao" (Taiwanese) = "Shaolin Thought"

Chum Kiu (Cantonese) = "Cham Chiu" (Taiwanese) = "Spear Hand"

Biu Jee (Cantonese) = "Byang Kee" (Taiwanese) = "Exploding Finger"

[KPM]

Thanks for the post Kevin! I have always understood "Sao" to mean "hand" or "arm." You seem to be saying in Taiwanese the term translates as "away"? Or are you just dropping the "Sao" part....."hit away" instead of "hit away hand"?

[Kevin Huang]

Thanks for the acknowledgement, KPM.

In Taiwanese, the word "tsao" means "to run" as in "run away". So if I was yelling at you to run away from a fire, I'd shout "Tsao!"

Taiwanese is a very open ended language where the same word can have multiple meanings. "Pah Tsao" (Pak Sao) literally translates to "to hit away", and that's it. It doesn't directly translate into "hit away with hand".

On a deeper level, the term can be read to mean all sorts of different things. That's how the old Fujian dialect works, and that's how the Wing Chun kung fu of that dialect works as well.

One of the reasons I started translating the Wing Chun terms is because Yip Man, Yuen Kay San, and several other historic Wing Chun masters were from Fujian province. In the old days, it would be highly likely that they spoke Fujianese as their native dialect and not the more modern Cantonese.

To me, it's hardly surprising that Wing Chun has old Fujianese terminology that translates so well.

[Zhang Yong Chun]

Great post, Kevin...

[Kevin Huang]

Thanks, Zhang Yong Chun.

Here's another one:

Biu Jee (Cantonese) = "Byang JEE" (Taiwanese) = Explode Tongue.

From a Fujianese speaker's perspective, "Explode Tongue" can mean many things. In my case, I'm thinking of soft graceful movement that has explosive power. Sort of like Hung Ga's "tiet sin" = "tee swhaa" = Iron Thread".

My Fujianese is incomplete, so there are a lot of Wing Chun terms that I cannot translate. For all I know, "Biu" might mean something totally different from what I've written here.

[Phil Redmond]

I'm Taiwanese, so I speak a variant of the old Fujian dialect.

Taiwanese is also known as "Fukienese", albeit with a slightly different pronunciation. It's very different in vocabulary and grammar from Mandarin or Cantonese.

Anyway, I have noticed that a lot of the old Wing Chun terms make perfect sense in Taiwanese. My Taiwanese is not complete, as I was never formally educated in that dialect but spoke it at home as my 1st language.

So if anybody can shed further linguistic examples, that would be greatly appreciated.

Here are some examples:

Pak Sao (Cantonese) = "Pah Tsao" (Taiwanese) = "hit away".

Tan Sao (Cantonese) = "Tun Tsao" (Taiwanese) = "Swallow away". Ngo Cho Kun (5 Ancestor Fist) uses this exact same terminology for Tan Sao.

Bong Sao (Cantonese) = "Pong Tsao" (Taiwanese) = "carry away" (as in to lift a big pot away).

Kiu Sao (Cantonese) = "Kiu Tsao" (Taiwanese), which translates into "pull away".

Huen Sao (Cantonese) = "Tng Tsao" (Taiwanese) = "turn away"


Si Lim Tao (Cantonese) = "Siu Lum Tao" (Taiwanese) = "Shaolin Thought"

Chum Kiu (Cantonese) = "Cham Chiu" (Taiwanese) = "Spear Hand"

Biu Jee (Cantonese) = "Byang Kee" (Taiwanese) = "Exploding Finger"

Based on the Chinese characters and not a specicfic dialect
Pak Sao (Cantonese) = slapping hand

Tan Sao (Cantonese) = dispersing/spreading hand

Bong Sao (Cantonese) = wing hand/arm

Kiu Sao (Cantonese) = bridging hand

Huen Sao (Cantonese) = circling hand


Siu Lim Tao (Cantonese) = small thought/idea head
(it's not the same characters as for Siu Lum/Shaolin

Chum Kiu (Cantonese) = depending on the character it can be searching bridge or sinking bridge

Biu Jee (Cantonese) = darting fingers.
I'll ask my Mandarin teacher for the Mandarin translations.
Here are some of the Chinese characters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun_terms

[Kevin Huang]

Good going, Phil Redmond.

I only wish to point out that literacy in Fujian is a fairly modern thing. I do consider the modern Chinese characters 100% valid as one specific view.

Besides, the plethora of dialects from locale to locale resulted in wildly different pronunciations. For example, I can barely understand the Taiwanese spoken in North Taiwan because I'm from the South. When I speak to somebody who speaks Fujianese, it's almost speaking to somebody from a completely different language. It's no different in reading, either.

In China, there's rarely just one way to do or interpret anything. That REALLY holds true in language, particularly in terms of kung fu.

[Phil Redmond]

I speak Cantonese and I'm learning Mandarin now. One thing that is constant are the characters. I've asked my Mandarin teacher to translate the Wing Chun terms into English and they come out the same. Though he can't speak Cantonese he still come to the same conclusions with regards to the terms in Cantonese.

[David Peterson]

Sorry Kevin, but I'm going to have to agree 100% with Phil on this one - these terms are NOT up for discussion because we are talking about the WRITTEN language, not a dialectical variation of pronunciation. I am a speaker of Mandarin AND Cantonese, not only reading and writing the language, but teaching it too. I too can't speak much Fujianese/Taiwanhua, but give me a pen and paper and I can have a conversation with just about anyone, regardless of dialect. Why? Because the written character is consistent across ALL dialects (...yes, I know that there is a written form of some dialects - I read written Cantonese too - but while the characters used may vary [eg: 'kan' in Mandarin/ 'tai' in Cantonese], the meanings do NOT) and so what you are saying is just NOT possible linguistically.
DMP

[Phil Redmond]

Sorry Kevin, but I'm going to have to agree 100% with Phil on this one - these terms are NOT up for discussion because we are talking about the WRITTEN language, not a dialectical variation of pronunciation. I am a speaker of Mandarin AND Cantonese, not only reading and writing the language, but teaching it too. I too can't speak much Fujianese/Taiwanhua, but give me a pen and paper and I can have a conversation with just about anyone, regardless of dialect. Why? Because the written character is consistent across ALL dialects (...yes, I know that there is a written form of some dialects - I read written Cantonese too - but while the characters used may vary [eg: 'kan' in Mandarin/ 'tai' in Cantonese], the meanings do NOT) and so what you are saying is just NOT possible linguistically.
DMP

Wow David, I am so impressed that you can read and write. I'm illiterate in Chinese. My Mandarin teacher insists that we learn to read or he won't teach us. I just remembered that my first Cantonese reader used some characters specific to Cantonese. Like the characters, for keuih (ta), and m (bu). You've inspired me to study harder.
Phil

[David Peterson]

No big deal, Phil, ...just time, motivation and a little hard work. Keep up your studies 'cause you won't regret it - languages (and especially Chinese to guys with our passion for the culture) open doors and provide experiences that make it all worthwhile
DMP

[bennyvt]

Interesting that the meanings are nearly the same, some dont quite work out though. Some actually make a bit more sense.
Hi David, this is benny, Bill dowding's student from newcastle. Didn't know you posted here. I was just discussing the stepping exercise you showed at the border incident to teach the step back to absorbe too much force. Didnt really describe it well you may want to have a look. I saw the shorts of the seminar video's, they look very good, I was going to buy the bundle as the book you signed for me got wet in the floods we had here, but ill have to wait to get the money.
See ya

[aelward]

I have the interesting experience of learning Wing Chun at Sifu Lo Man Kam's school in Taipei, where Sifu Lo (native Cantonese speaker) was always yelling the Cantonese terms at us non-locals, while the local students were usually using the Mandarin pronunciations of the same characters; and occasionally the the Taiwanese/Min-Nan (you can't really say Taiwanese = Fujianese, because Fujian has three major dialects) among themselves.

But the constant was definitely the characters. Though there are some characters that are commonly used in Cantonese that aren't used as commonly in Mandarin....

From a pronunciation POV, Cantonese and Taiwanese are much more "authentic" Sino languages-- compared to Mandarin, which has been influenced by the northern tribes. Supposedly if you read Tang poetry (from 1300 years ago), it's much more likely to rhyme in Cantonese and Taiwanese (and interestingly enough, Japanese "On" readings of the Kanji) than in Mandarin.

[LoneTiger108]

Sorry Kevin, but I'm going to have to agree 100% with Phil on this one - these terms are NOT up for discussion because we are talking about the WRITTEN language, not a dialectical variation of pronunciation...

I'm thankful to Phil and yourself Dave for putting this thread in some sort of order, as I tend not to be heard at all when it comes to talk of actual 'written language'. I'm by far fluent in either Cantonese or Mandarin but I understand the importance of curriculums and traditional teachings within the Wing Chun I learnt at least.

Kevin, you mention that 'literacy in Fujian is a modern thing', but you must understand that the late Ip Man was NOT illiterate. I think even if you research heavily you may find it hard to clarify ANYTHING in Wing Chun before Ip Mans influence as many taught verbally only. This is because he was a scholar and he brought the curriculums and terminologies into the open.

There is a stark difference between what some refer to as 'Weng Chun' and 'Wing Chun'. One is verbal transmission and one is written and verbal transmission. The characters for Weng & Wing are different.

The 'Weng Chun Tong' in Shaolin was known for it's mantras more than it's Martial Arts, and these mantras were NEVER written down!

Obviously this can lead to all types of confusion, hence the massive importance of Ip Mans influence before the knowledge spread to the West.

[Vajramusti]

Kevin will emerge from time to time in multiple forums with mostly superficial chit chat.

joy chaudhuri