Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[Mr Punch]

Re-education goes a long way.

When the average life-span in your country is cut drastically short by the number of suicide bombers from other countries forcing their way of death on you, your population becomes younger overall and you should be able to sway impressionable victimization-sick youngsters to join your cause... that works for the forces of order as much as for the terrorists.

Look at Iraq: their main success that has any chance of lasting has been in programmes for bringing people together against the foreign terrorists: I don't mean inthe security forces which has a mixed success rate because of perceived collusion with the US and corruption but with militia and community groups too. If some of the generals had been listened to and the US had cultivated al Sadr 5 years ago, for example, they'd have had a useful (if volatile) ally. The allies and militia in that region have always been volatile and untrustworthy anyway, but it's better to at last have them a little sympathetic.

In Pakistan the same thing is happening: the tribal leaders and the new military leaders are actively pursuing a straight-out assault and a guerilla war on the Taliban and foreign extremists: they're really sick of bombings in their cities.

There are other options to invasion.

With McCain's continuation of Bush's militaristic sabre-rattling and wanting to be seen not to back down, there will likely be more incursions into Pakistan and more Pakistani army folk turning against whatever coalition is in play. We have to respect Pakistani territory. With assistance where the Pakistani government need it through sensible negotiations there can be an end, without excessive US/UK/NATO resources.

What Bush constantly ignored with Hussein and with every would-be hydra's regrowth is that you can't play brinksmanship in the Middle East or increasingly, other Moslem nations. Their culture is the ultimate version of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Saladin was an expert: we're not just talking about the last 100 years of British Imperial, then US interference in Middle Eastern government and territorial disputes.

Just another reason why McCain and that dumb tart are two of the worst things that could happen to the US and world right now.

[Mr Punch]

They are religious extremists. They believe they have the true word of G'd and that our way of life, our culture, the way we do things, the way we think, etc is not only WRONG but also an insult to G'd...

Sounds like some of the 30 million fundamentalist Christians in the US!

[lkfmdc]

Sounds like some of the 30 million fundamentalist Christians in the US!

I said it before on this very thread, there is NO DIFFERENCE. Fundamentalism is the problem, not religion per se....

[CLFLPstudent]

You can't negotiate with someone who thinks that there way is the ONLY way

Sadly, the same can be said about 'extremists' on both parties in our country......


-David

[SimonM]

I consider a VP who believes in witchcraft to be dangerous to my national defense.

This is truth

[SimonM]

Sounds good but it fails to accept a basic reality about Al Queda. They are religious extremists. They believe they have the true word of G'd and that our way of life, our culture, the way we do things, the way we think, etc is not only WRONG but also an insult to G'd.....

The BBC did a story on Islamic extremists and interviewed a cleric in London. He said that if you don't pay your rent, the landlord evicts you. He said that the world is G'd's and if you don't obey G'd's word you will be evicted from ALL OF EARTH....

You can't negotiate with someone who thinks that there way is the ONLY way

We know you agree that religious extremism of any stripe is a problem.

So...

Glass houses...

Stones.

25% of the population of the USA is evangelical christian. I wonder what percentage of the people in Pakistan consider themselves to be fundamentalists. Betcha it's not much different.

[lkfmdc]

25% of the population of the USA is evangelical christian. I wonder what percentage of the people in Pakistan consider themselves to be fundamentalists. Betcha it's not much different.

1. I think you'd be wrong. I think the percentage is higher, though certainly there are many people in Pakistan who are NOT extremists

2. The US doesn't have areas of the nation where there is absolutely no government control and the rule of law is absent. Clitoral circumscision is NOT popularly practiced in the US, not are women frequently stoned to death for perceived infidelity. Again, this isn't saying pakistan is "bad" and should be bombed. But we are dealing with a movement that has significant bases of support from which to operate

[SimonM]

It's true that the rule of law is stronger in the USA than in Pakistan. That's a good thing.

Don't lose it in a libertarian frenzy to do away with the government.

[David Jamieson]

well, according to all the stuff that went down recently in the US, I would say that there is an aspect of white slavery that is practiced in the insulated communities of the CofLDS for instance.

Waco was another weirdo fundamentalist group and there are plenty of others.

there are atrocities and inhumane acts carried out every single day in the USA.

also worthy of note, it is the top 5 permanent UN security council members who are also the top 5 arms dealers on the planet.

Those guns that are distributed to 3rd world nations in exchange for resources and business access are used to carry out further atrocities, but that doesn't play on our conscience because it's a few times removed from our site and the only propaganda and rhetoric we see concerns the results and not the foundations which would reveal our collective contribution to misery and death the world over.

more to mull over.

[lkfmdc]

It's true that the rule of law is stronger in the USA than in Pakistan. That's a good thing.

Don't lose it in a libertarian frenzy to do away with the government.

Libertarians aren't anarchists. They support government in a LIMITED FUNCTION, most specifically to uphold order and justice and to insure the freedoms of the population. A libertarian can see paying taxes for fire depts, police, the hoover dam, etc.

[1bad65]

With McCain's continuation of Bush's militaristic sabre-rattling and wanting to be seen not to back down, there will likely be more incursions into Pakistan and more Pakistani army folk turning against whatever coalition is in play. We have to respect Pakistani territory. With assistance where the Pakistani government need it through sensible negotiations there can be an end, without excessive US/UK/NATO resources.

Just another reason why McCain and that dumb tart are two of the worst things that could happen to the US and world right now.

FYI, it's Obama who said he would bomb Pakistan without informing them first, not Bush or McCain.

[lkfmdc]

well, according to all the stuff that went down recently in the US, I would say that there is an aspect of white slavery that is practiced in the insulated communities of the CofLDS for instance.

1. As you just said, one INSULATED community....

2. But ultimately the governemnt DID step in

Compare that to many Islamic nations and the situation isn't even close!

Should I also point out that we have a Western, democratic legal system while many of those states are run by Sharia....

And Sharia isn't even real Islamic law (ie based upon text or the prophet's teachings). Much of it is local custom and history. Some of it DEFIES things actually contained in the Koran!

[1bad65]

force just doesn't work, never has, never will.

also, you can't effectively occupy a country and expect it to behave. yeesh, the fall of the roman empire was all about that.

Tell that to the Nazis and the Japanese.

Force is what caused them to cease attacking sovereign nations and occupation is what made sure that the problems did not repeat themselves.

[David Jamieson]

Yes, it is a huge insulated community but it's not the only one.

the government stepped in at waco in a very ham handed ridiculous way. They killed children for pete's sakes with that aggression. It was bad and there is no escaping that.

also, McVie is another example of crazy fundamentalists in america causing the deaths of many, and again, kids! That was home grown american on america violence.

as for sharia law. It isn't consisting of just reason to stone people and reasons to behead people or cut off their hands.

there is public execution in america and death sentences carried out in america. I don't see the ultimate difference between a death sentence in saudi arabia v a death sentence in the USA except for the way it's carried out which amounts to a cultural difference and with a pluralistic view, which is absolutely required when talking about cross cultural issues, the comparison is quite standard.

America is not innocent and hapless here is all I'm saying.

Islam is not about evil, neither is judaeism or christianity, but unfortunately there are violent and extreme people under each of these robes. Each religious fundamentalist group from each of these commits acts of terror on the others and has done so for all the time they've been around!

[SimonM]

1. As you just said, one INSULATED community....

2. But ultimately the governemnt DID step in

Compare that to many Islamic nations and the situation isn't even close!

Should I also point out that we have a Western, democratic legal system while many of those states are run by Sharia....

And Sharia isn't even real Islamic law (ie based upon text or the prophet's teachings). Much of it is local custom and history. Some of it DEFIES things actually contained in the Koran!

Thats because Shariah isn't that much different than common law in it's core tenets (case law setting precedent for future decisions) it has simply evolved with a very different set of beliefs as to what constitutes law within that tradition of interpretation.

That being said Shariah is not based on any monolithic scriptural code.