Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[SimonM]

1. Do you think the Founding Fathers would have supported killing unborn babies based solely on the mother's whims?

Considering they considered slaves (who were born) to count as 1/3 of a person I question whether they could have reasonably considered the incomplete genetic material of parents that would eventually become a baby to have personhood.

2. Do you think they would support the average family paying around 50% of their income as taxes?

No. But that doesn't mean that taxation for services isn't a good idea. The economy of 230 years ago is rather different than the one of today.

Here is one major difference: I consider the opinions of the founding fathers of the USA to be largely irrelevant. More eighteenth century hypocracy at it's best. You think it's important.

[MasterKiller]

It should also be mentioned that the founding fathers were part of the enlightenment and therefore their religious practice revolved around REASON, far removed from the faith-based fundamentialists Christians we see today.

[Black Jack II]

Actually the Founding Fathers did say our rights were God given.

Beat me to it

Do you believe that the founding fathers of the United States had some sort of special connection to the divine?

No. But the core of what is America was greatly influenced by the values and belief structure in Christian principles. But when the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3)

They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official national religion, such as England had.

Do you believe that they could forsee the development of weapons technology over the subsequent 230 years?

LMAO-typical side angle attack on the 2nd. Get something new. But considering your lack of knowledge on firearms in your previous post its not at all uncommon.

Here is one major difference: I consider the opinions of the founding fathers of the USA to be largely irrelevant.

Your from Canada so who gives a sh!t when it comes to that topic.

[1bad65]

I consider the opinions of the founding fathers of the USA to be largely irrelevant.

They only wrote the Constitution for the country that has become the most prosperous country in the world.

Do you put more value in the opinions of people like Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, and Bill Clinton by chance?

[1bad65]

Maybe you should get your facts straight. Some were Deists and Unitarians. Thomas Jefferson called Christianity "the cult of Jesus" and predicted it would die out.

Actually most were Christians, Protestants to be more precise.

But in their wisdom they made sure to give the people freedom of religion, even though they knew some would choose religions other than their own.

[SimonM]

Do you believe that the founding fathers of the United States had some sort of special connection to the divine?

No.

Ok so the document is NOT sacred.

Your from Canada so who gives a sh!t when it comes to that topic.

Apparently 1bad65 does.

And if I can heckle the crazies who believe that the Christian God told them that they had permission to carry assault... sorry "battle" rifles and get some entertainment out of my blase work day before I head to the kwoon for a good sweat than I'm happy.

Honestly I couldn't care less if I convince you of anything. You are a complete nutjob. It's just fun poking at your pseudo-religious pseudo-patriotism bound in a misinterpretation of a centuries old rationalist legal document.

[1bad65]

Considering they considered slaves (who were born) to count as 1/3 of a person I question whether they could have reasonably considered the incomplete genetic material of parents that would eventually become a baby to have personhood.

They did say we all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[1bad65]

Ok so the document is NOT sacred.

The document created a system of government that has given us ALOT more prosperity than you socialists in Canada.

And if I can heckle the crazies who believe that the Christian God told them that they had permission to carry assault... sorry "battle" rifles...

No one said that, idiot. But considering you were educated in a socialist country, we know why your reading comprehension skills are lacking.

[MasterKiller]

Actually most were Christians, Protestants to be more precise.

But in their wisdom they made sure to give the people freedom of religion, even though they knew some would choose religions other than their own.

Actually, MOST were freemasons which were Deist, by the most. The Constitution itself never mentions God or Christianity. The reference God in the Declaration of Independence is a Deist reference to the Natural Order.

[SimonM]

The document created a system of government that has given us ALOT more prosperity than you socialists in Canada.

That is highly questionable. Us socialists in Canada got Canada universal health care that uniformly scores higher ratings from independent third parties than your mess. Canada is not a bunch of bumpkins living in igloos and talking in hoser accents.

He was showcasing his natural Freedom granted to us by our very sacred 2nd.

No one said that, idiot. But considering you were educated in a socialist country, we know why your reading comprehension skills are lacking.

Referencing the freedom to carry arms as a "natural" freedom (a reference to natural law which is law reflecting the fundamental nature of reality) - which in this context, combined with the use of the word sacred, implies the intervention of the divine. Or, a god-given right. So, actually, Black Jack II DID say that. And I was responding to Black Jack II when I countered.

And Canada is not a socialist country. Us socialists managed to include a few socialist ideas into the social safety net... because, get this, THEY WORK... but Canada is a member of the G8 and very much plays the capitalist game.

[Black Jack II]

He was showcasing his natural Freedom granted to us by our very sacred 2nd

Again with the comprehension issue. Sacred can mean regarded with reverence or secured against infringement. Kind of like how someone takes a sacred oath...

That is highly questionable. Us socialists in Canada got Canada universal health care that uniformly scores higher ratings from independent third parties than your mess.

Universal health care is a cancer. Our mess, you mean the mess which provides the best emergency health care system in the world

[SimonM]

It was the bit about "natural" freedoms that drives your statement AWAY from that definition of sacred. It is not my comprehension that is at fault.
You are just **** poor at expressing yourself if that wasn't your intent.

[Black Jack II]

Actually, MOST were freemasons which were Deist, by the most.

Very true, a main virtue in being a Freemason is the believe in a Supreme Being or in some jurisdictions, a Creative Principle.

Freemasons always stress non-dogmatism and tolerance (albeit often within certain defined limits). This openness has led to friction between Freemasonry and organizations which hold a negative view of ecumenism, or are themselves intolerant towards other forms of belief and worship. Masons have been opposed throughout history by various religious groups, such as some Protestants and certain Muslims.

If you want to get historic, Freemasonry is often identified with 19th-century bourgeois liberalism and often viewed traditional Christianity as a reactionary power defending the status quo against the advance of human freedom and science.

By this we mean the Church proper and not believe in a Grand Architect.

[Black Jack II]

It was the bit about "natural" freedoms that drives your statement AWAY from that definition of sacred.

Sorry no cigar for you.

Freedom is a broad concept and it can be given a number of interpretations by different schools of thought.

When we speak of the right to bear arms it is a inner freedom to the right of self defense. The right you are born with as an autonomous being who is capable of exerting free will and choice.

Not freedom in terms of political liberty. Though this two is part of what makes American the great experiment.

[SimonM]

Way to backpedal nutjob.