truth on Raul Ortiz

[word]

Here's the truth on Raul Ortiz. He didn't know what the hell he learned before. Was it pure mantis? No. It was mantis combined with choy lay fut, hung gar and other styles. He made tapes that were supposed to be 7 star though. If you look at his post " WHY SO MANY FORMS" a member (yee ho society) asks him why he uses tiger claws etc. ......... ORTIZ RESPONDS BY SAYING HE NEVER CLAIMED TO TEACH 7 STAR! THATS' HIS EXPLANATION FOR HIS MIXED UP STYLE. TODAY HE IS TEACHING A MORE LEGITIMATE 7 STAR BECAUSE HE HAS FOUND CL AND LEE KAM WING. bEFORE HE WAS MAKING UP **** AS HE WENT ALONG.

ORTIZ, EVERYONE IN THE MANTIS CIRCLES KNOWS YOU MADE UP ****. NOW YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH A LITTLE BETTER MANTIS SINCE YOU FOUND BETTER SIFUS. YOU PRODUCE THE BEST MANTIS STUDENTS AROUND? ARROGANT AREN'T YOU?

[Tang Lang]

WORD (EARTH WORM)

I wasn't going to comment on your bull****!, but since you are trying to offend me my Sifu's and my clan, I felt compeled to answer.

Get your facts straight you PUNK!...either you're STUPID or you can't READ!

What I said was the tapes that I made do not say 7 Star mantis style. First of all if you knew anything about mantis, you would have known that they are northern mantis forms.

I always taught 7 Star at my school. And where the hell do you get that my mantis is a mix of Choy Lut Fut, you idiot.

You can say what ever you want about me and you can call me arrogant, because I have earned the right to be arrogant and conceited. You see, little earth worm, if you have done it, then is not considered bragging.

If you don't think that I have produced some of the finest mantis students around, lets put it to a test. You call the place and time and I'll be there with my students.

After they rip you apart, you tell me if I'm arrogant. Listen punk, I want you! and when I find out who you are, you will regret the day you decided to talk **** about me and any other Sifu or student on this board, trust me earth worm! lot's of people are looking for you.

AND WE WILL FIND YOU SOONER OR LATER!

Remember PUNK you have my school address, if I'm not all that, come on take me on, what the hell do you have to lose?

I call you out once again, yet you do not accept.
Why are you AFRAID? (I'm no good according to you, so you should be able to wipe the floor with me)come on lets dance?

Another thing is amazing how you can interact with some of my students and yet you consider me no good, you really make me laugh, oh boy I think I'm going to pee in my pants from the laughter.

You have my address you EARTH WORM! use it!

(Tang lang is my student, please any response answer to Qi Xing Tong Long.)
Ortiz, Sifu
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Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7 Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

[Magnus750]

Wow, that was an intelligent and dignified response that surely will result in no legal action of any kind, LOL. I saw you on a tape, and you seem to have good point sparring skills, but you miss the point(that spinning top drill hanging from the string was hilarious). It is about Jin, and the drills should reflect that. The most effective attacks are elbows, and you need to address that if you are marketing yourself as "authentic" Mantis. The waist, hips, and feet/legs are the source of power, and you seem to ignore that. Do you know what the three bows are? Do you know the concepts of Dan Tien and Tsun Kwan? Do you even condition yourself? Lift weights? You lack a fighter's humility as well. If you want, set up an NHB match. I will be competing next summer (when I have time off from college [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ). This is not an offensive challenge, like the one you posted, but rather an opportunity for you to take a real direction in fighting and not this cultish "I WANT YOU" approach LOL.

[word]

WOW! you sure dont' act like a sifu. Looks like I touched a soft spot eh? I know many people agree with me but hold back on posting. Magnum agrees with me. ARE ALL OF YOU GOING TO CALL HIM A TROLL NOW? If you do , that says a lot about kung fu today. Raul does the first section of a hung gar form (tiger Crane) with a mantis hand and passed it off as traditional 7 star mantis. That was a joke. My post got 5 stars. That's cool.

[Rochester7StarMantis]

Magnus,
I thought only Word was capable of ruining perfectly good threads.
How can you expect anyone reading this to take you seriously. What is your Name? Who did you train with? You live only a few mile from Ortiz's school, and rather than go there and talk crap to his face, you hide in cyberspace and post B.S. Do everyone a favor, go back to standing in front of a mirror and telling yourself how tuff you are.
As for word, a friend of mine seen him and told me he is no good. He also said that word gave up training after being cut from the Special Olympic Tae Kwon Do team.
Brian,
Rochester7StarMantis
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Magnus750]

Look, I fully intend on taking a look at Raul's school, and I don't stand in front of a mirror LOL ... that's for you point sparrers [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] I do use mirrors when shadow boxing sometimes, to check angles, form, stance sometimes... but you don't box, do you...? Btw, the word is spelled "tough" LOL. Plenty of people take me seriously, I could care less about a gay stranger such as yourself. As far as that goes, I don't believe that line about the special Olympics TKD team, and I didn't know that the special Olympics had a TKD team at all. Making fun of the Special Olympics and the handicapped people who have more heart than you and your ilk ever could is shameful, anyway. You and Raul deserve each other; you both post ridiculous self-aggrandizing threads that are personal insults (rather poorly presented, I might add) and totally avoid the questions of legitimacy. I trained with Rick Marallo in VT. He learned Mantis with Kris Valentine. That's as far as I know, and I did not think to ask for a ridiculous "82 forms lineage chart", as we used Mantis concepts as part of our whole training. Also included was a lot of Boxing and Karate. Mantis was always my favorite though [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]. The concepts of crossing Jin (torque) and generating power through rotational power and the use of the legs, hips, and waist was the important thing to grasp, and we did it well. I make no effort to "hide" LOL I practically posted right where I live, and I included my e-mail for contact information. Rick was quick to point out, many years ago, that modern wu shu was useless and "flicky". That is the kind of movement that I saw on Raul Ortiz's tape. The drills involving the top and striking with the finger will get you killed in a real fight. Mantis uses the elbows and a lot of palm attacks. That's real Mantis, though, not fantasy point sparring, where tagging someone with the fingertips can make them fall. Also I have trained in some jujitsu (though I don't have a belt rank) and I have trained with some collegiate wrestlers, two of whom were state champions from Middlebury, VT. I also knew other wrestlers, many of whom trained harder than the point sparrers who tried to stay at range and kick. I will check out Ortiz's school, if it makes you feel better, when I get a car, and when I have the time, probably in December when I am out of college. I would much rather make the commute to Lawclansman's school, since he has a lot more character, insight, and legitimate credentials than Ortiz. Sorry, but that's the way I see it. If you and your "ninja" clan want to look for me LOL like word, be my guest. I will be happy to knock you unconscious. I really think it is a bad idea, though, since you obviously need those two brain cells that you and Raul seem to share, what with all your "WE WILL FIND YOU" posts. You're a joker anyway, this is more of an expository post than a true rebuttal, as such concepts are likely wasted on cretins such as yourself anyway.

[mantis7]

Look I trained with Sifu Ortiz for a long time... When we trained and fought it was always full contact.. We even touched hands ( bare ) quite a few times and I can tell you what he does in class is far from the point sparring done in tounamemts,,,
Just fot FYI... My training now consist of just drilling my basic concepts and body conditioning.. That means drilling my basic skills hundreds of times. Conditioning my arms legs and other body parts on a new iron pipe dummy I just recently built.... Shadowboxing with my techniques and heavy bag work along with strength training in the gym.....as well as taking yoga...and enduracnce building training...

Oh Magus remember that Sifu Ortiz created those videos quite sometime ago.... Everyone evoles ( hopefully) also remember that anyone who makes a tape and I mean anyone usually holds back info or skill on the tapes..... plus you perform a video for instructional use and not to show case your true skill......also video tapes are for money plain and simple..( my personal view )

and waist jing can be defined as a top but it can be more of a cork screw type of drilling but with every type of movement either in a punch or kick is diffrent and hell in a throw there is waist jing.. When moving like that it is more of a top drilling movement like a drill going into the ground... but that is my take on it...plus a few of yiming yang students take on it also but I am still researching it also so I am open to ideas and theroy...

I dont like the idea of using vidoe tapes to learn gung fu for the simple reason you can not learn to fight from them unles you have some type of training to truly understand it...
Boxer dont do it.... but I digress.. Fightting in Sifu Ortiz school included all ranges ( yes ground fighting) There were knock outs ( belive me I know I have given some and take a lot) This was at the south bronx school...

So becareful what you are willing to do.. Either you are very dumb to issue a challenege and then say you will check out the school expecting to be able to walk away with out backing your WORD up or your THAT DAM GOOD and have no fear... Remember beaing sure of yourself is a good thing but having no fear isnt and by no means am I blinded to the fact the Sifu Ortiz can be beat but I know win or lose both of you are going to the hospital....

Also I am wondering are you related to WORD he stops posting then you start.... Just coiencednce (sp) but hey you two seem to write a like....but hey what do I know...

oh yeah I am currently training under Sifu Albright in 7 star praying mantis...and I can tell you HE IS THAT DAM GOOD... ( you guys got to see his sticking skills )

Victor

Oh and Magus I dont think you are a troll and neither is word.. LOL I just love to bust his chops as much as he does everyone else.... but proof is in the pudding stick your finger and taste I just hope you dont draw back a nub..

( This has been a another 2 cents from the peanut gallery brought to by the Gung fu is for crazy people association )
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

[This message was edited by mantis7 on 10-09-00 at 10:16 PM.]

[Tang Lang]

Magnus:

First of all no one is questioning my credentials, I worked hard to earn every bit of knowledge that I have gained and still seeking.

You stress yourself on the fact that you say 82 forms is rediculous, well maybe to you, you say i have no Jin, well that is your opinion, you also state that you have seen me with your own eyes, well that is a lie, you have seen me in a tape done when I was in my 20's, I am in my 40's now.

Do you honestly think that I have not been practicing. I have to agree with you in the matter of me coming on to strong towards word, but you see, this word, is just a troll, all he does is talk bad about everybody. And it gets to the point when you get upset.

Let me get back to the forms, it's not just knowing the forms, but knowing how to use them that matters and you are correct, just cause you know the forms doesn't make you a fighter.

But you see, I am a fighter and have been known as a fighter, I have fought in bare knuckle tournaments, you say you did Kyokushin, well in 86 I took the bare knuckle championship,by the way I used my traditional techniques from my forms with my Jin.

About the tapes, you mentioned in another post that you saw me hitting the top lids hanging from a string, but what you had mentioned on that post is wrong. You see I never said that by using this type of training method that you would be able to drop someone with a finger strike.

What I said was, these is one method that you can use to help you focus your finger strike to a moving target. This way when you fight your eyes and your finger will be accurate in your strike to your opponents eye.

Listen, everyone has their own training method that helps them. There is a saying in spanish "POR GUSTO SE HICIERON LOS COLORES" meaning, "Colors were made for individual taste".

My tea might not be your cup of tea, but to come out bluntly and say that I'm no good, you don't even know me or how I teach. So, since you go to school not to far from my school, I suggest to you to stop by and we can chat, and we can exchange ideas. This way you can observe how I teach and if you still can find what you are looking for in my school, then fine, but at least you have witness it by yourself in person and not by what you saw on a video.

No instructor that I know would put what he completely on a tape. We might teach a for, but in order to understand that form, don't you think that it's important to go and seek that Sifu and find out.

You are going to college right know, are you cutting your courses by a 1/3 or 1/2? I'm sure you are not. So, why would you cut the mantis by so much?

When you study medicine, you study the whole thing, not just certain subjects. How you practice your medicine will determine how great of a doctor you become.

Same thing with the mantis system, you might think that 82 forms is stupid, well I have to say that is a matter of opinion, but then all you have done is just scratch the surface, and we must go in deep into the system to even understand Jin.

I have no ill feelings towards anyone including you. Because I know what I know, if you care to share, then I will, if not so it be. But remember we the mantis family from the CCM line are trying to work together and better ourselves.

I make mistakes just like anyone else and I am willing to correct them as well. That's the true warrior. My reputation as a fighter speaks for it self and I have been there and done that. Just remember one thing (I think that you are in your 20's, but not sure)I have been your age, but you still have not been mine.

Good luck in your journey!

(please address to Qi Xing Tong Long, Tang lang is my student, just used his reply forum)

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7 Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

[WongFeHung]

Magnum, tell me when you go to Sifu Ortiz' mo gwoon, I love watching him fight!-Seriuosly, I have competed with, demonstrated with and have done seminars with Sifu Ortiz, and you can rest assured, his Mantis is the real deal, (you don't have to like him,hey, alot of people don't like me either, get in line!)don't think for a moment that you can judge a person's knowledge by what he gives away for free to the general public in a video. It is an unwritten law in kung-fu that you don't give out to non-initiates, look at Paul Eng's books,or Lee Kam Wing's, is he showing high-level technique? Of course not, he is showing the "profane" simple applications so they can get a handle on the system, not mastery.Gung-Fu is taught in layers. A Sifu might teach many versions of the same form to his students; one for the entry level, one for more advanced, and still another version for closed-door disciples. If you are not aware of these facts, you need to spend more time with your Sifu.

[BeiTangLang]

First off I have to say that this is not about sifu ortiz, his instucion, nor his tapes. I do not know him, have not seen him & have no reason to at this time at my level(low). It is a reply to TenTigers.

Different form variations per level?? Ludicrous! That would boost forms required to be known to a b/s level of numbers. As far as videos are concerned, if you are not going to show something that is the truth, then what you are showing is a lie. Showing a simple but true application for movements & advancing the applications for the moves is the way a student should be advanced regarless of being an open/closed/swinging door student or not.
Just my take on things of course, but a form should be a form, should be a form; only the level of application should change.
-my 3 cents....one day I'll have enough to buy somthing....LOL!
-BT

"Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

[WongFeHung]

okay, maybe I should make this more clear; subtle changes in stance, faht ging,striking areas, or anatomical weapons would have a profound effect on the form, thus changing it. For a beginner student, these concepts are too obscure. BTW, my Sifu teaches different versions for the major forms in our system, but then again, there are only four major forms in the system,so it's not like learning 80 somewhat forms over again.(however, the major forms each contain over 200 moves, so it is still work)

[bamboo_ leaf]

Can any one here actuly say that theve done anything to promote CMA other then find some one who dose and then attempt to discreadit them.

The leaders of the mantis community are responsable for accrediting teachers or people teaching X-mantis style. I see none of them posting on this borad. So what is gained from all this? ///

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[Magnus750]

fellas, with a very few exceptions (this is not aimed at everyone on here), you all should stay out of any kind of fights. I come back to this forum in a few days and I find a boatload of excuses and more forms talk. CMA needs serious reform, or it will die. All that will remain are a couple of gay forms collections, that will get beat down and sodomized in any real fight by the likes of any brawler. You people(you know who you are) should wake up.

[word]

Raul Ortiz sucks.

[RODRIGUEZ]

Raul Ortiz sucks.<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]
Word, Do I sense jealousy? Yours seems to be a case of ad hominem. Surely you cannot be making the 'sucks' remark in reference to Sifu Ortiz's skill in his martial arts ability. I think you know this and probably first hand,but what do I know right.This leads me to believe that this is very personal. Does he have something you wish you had? Has he achieved something you wish you had? By chance have you ever gotten your A** whipped by him in a tournament or elsewhere in days gone by?