Traditional 18 Forms

[Three Harmonies]

Well bro, that is where many may disagree with me. What is a "Mantis Weapon"? There is no "Mantis" in a weapon because the weapon adheres to certain principles set forth by the weapon, and the ability of the human body. If I hook my hand a certain way does that make it "Mantis?" Know what I mean?
So I do not look at these as stylistic weapons, but rather weapons based on how that specific weapon is utilized.
I have learned the Jian Ma Dao from my teacher Hu Xi Lin, who learned from Ma Han Qin. All Mantis cats. But the form came from Ma's understanding of the 108 weapons of Shaolin. I learned my Miao Dao from John Wang, but it certainly is NOT a Shuai Chiao weapon! I learned the Melon Hammers from Jochen Wolfgramm who was part of LKW Mantis group, but there is no mantis in it. See what I mean? I even learned some two handed sword from Wang Rengang, but again you would not look at it and go '" Oh yeah, I see the mantis"

Not sure this helps, but that is my 2 cents
Cheers
Jake

[tattooedmonk]

I understand what you are saying. So there are no standardized weapon sets in the various mantis systems?? or at least in your's and some others????

[Three Harmonies]

In mine, no. When I studied with Wutan, no. LKW I have heard, yes. Steve Cottrell and his group, and believe so. Pong Lai, not sure.

[Paul T England]

I agree with most of the argument that weapons are weapons and not mantis or Hung Gar but certain characteristics should come through. with the Melon Hammers I see most ofl the keywords and main techniques. Kwa, Fung etc. and the footwork can also show which style they come from. Choy Li fut forms compared to Mantis Forms are easy to distingush but it gets more dificult with cross polinated styles like North Shaolin/Mantis or Hung Gar/Choy Li Fut.

Paul

[B.Tunks]

These are some of the main weapons of the TLQ families- Damo Jian, Baxian Jian, Qixing Jian, Tiangang Jian, Yuhuan Jian, Yanqing Dao, Yuhuan Dao, Liuhe Shuang Dao, Liuhe Gun, Taiyi Zijin Gun, Wulang Gun, Meihua Qiang, Liuhe Qiang, Qunqiu Dadao.

T

[Three Harmonies]

BT
Are they similar to other styles' version's of the same (at least named) form? Or are these unique to the Mantis systems?

Thanks
Jake

[tattooedmonk]

These are some of the main weapons of the TLQ families- Damo Jian, Baxian Jian, Qixing Jian, Tiangang Jian, Yuhuan Jian, Yanqing Dao, Yuhuan Dao, Liuhe Shuang Dao, Liuhe Gun, Taiyi Zijin Gun, Wulang Gun, Meihua Qiang, Liuhe Qiang, Qunqiu Dadao.

T

Thanks . May I get an english translation of these forms ,please??

[B.Tunks]

Thanks . May I get an english translation of these forms ,please??

Jake,

They bear very little resemblance to weapons matching their name (eg. baxian and damo jian, liuhe gun). Almost all of these weapons routines utilise yuhuan bu, qixing bu, gou shou etc. The spear forms, followed by the stick forms (and qixing jian, liuhe shuang dao) are a little more generic, but still pretty distinct. The versions of jian most closely match Tanglang shen fa, bu fa etc.

TM

Damo Jian- Damo (Boddhidharma) Sword
Baxian Jian - 8 Immortals Sword
Qixing Jian - Seven Star Sword
Tiangang Jian- Heavenly Stars Jian (from memory, TBC)
Yuhuan Jian - Jade Ring Sword
Yuhuan Dao - " " Broadsword
Yanqing Dao- Yanqing Broadsword
Liuhe Shuang Dao - Six Harmonies Double Broadsword
Liuhe Gun - " " Stick
Taiyi Zijin Gun - Taiyi Purple Gold Stick
Wulang Gun - 5th Son Stick
Meihua Qiang - Plum Blossom Spear
Liuhe Qiang - Six Harmonies Spear
Qunqiu Dadao Spring and Autumn Halberd/Long Handled Broadsword.

[Oso]

just my very minor .02 on PL: the one form I've learned from Shifu Scolaro that Shifu Brazier also does is a Shaolin 18 Stick: Shaolin Shi Ba Gun. (me and a student did a crappy rendition of the 2 man version at the MQ event in '05) I learned a spear set from Shifu Jim and a broadsword set but both were from his Wah Lum background and he taught them to me because I asked.(Thanks, J. !) Both good sets, imho irregardless of from where.

Shifu Kevin, i think, plays the jian and double single sticks a lot but that opinion (mine) is just based on the clips he's given out and small comments he's said about both.

if there is truth to the opinion that the empty hand largely derives from the old weapon work from waaaay back then the should obviously be a commonality to weapon sets across styles ???? right ????

[Three Harmonies]

BT
Thanks. I stand corrected.
Jake

[MightyB]

All I can say is that there are a lot of weapons sets at our school (Chung) and there seems to be a progressive methodology in the order of how you learn them. The sets are consistent with what LKW and Tony Chuy teach. Also, in Shandung- The two handed jian is referred to as Mantis Sword.

[MightyB]

http://www.northernmantis.com/forms....eapons%20Forms

http://www.leekamwing.com/ (click the forms tab and scroll down to weapons)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdO-6_v9pMc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn1EQscart0

[B.Tunks]

There are a few two handed jian forms (though they are younger than the single handed versions). What is referred to as tanglang jian is a generic modern creation based largely on the double handed movements from damo jian and baxian jian (not all versions of either are double handed but still have some double handed or supported strikes).

BT

[Tainan Mantis]

You may find this article interesting.

It starts off...

Mantis Boxing is based on chopping with the hands and forearms in moves such as beng (collapsing-the back fist) and pi (cleaving). These same motions are constantly seen in weapon techniques. Is Mantis Boxing closely tied to the techniques of chopping weapons? This month I uncover never before seen relationships between Mantis Boxing and paired weapons.


Buried in there is also...

Short strikes are a key ingredient of what makes up not only the Mantis Boxing style but many other styles of martial art as well.

The theory of short strikes is also the underlying method of weapons. Recent discoveries have uncovered a new link between the short strikes of Mantis Boxing and that of weapons.


http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.co...L%20swords.htm

[Three Harmonies]

As always, nice article!
Jake