What do you think of Wing Chun in Sanshou competitions?

[t_niehoff]

I agree to an extent - and thats to say we need to be more specific in whats similar and whats totally different.
I can only speak of myslef in this regard.

The issue isn't similarity or dissimilarlity -- comparisons will always produce similarities. The issue is: are you doing what (the movement) you learn and train to do when you fight? If you learn/train movement X (WCK) but then do movement Y when you fight, you're not using your training.

When i saprr in a ring, you see a more mobile horse and a less obvious Bi Jong pose or guard if you will, from say Gor Sau ... but its still VT.

That's what they all say -- I'm doing things differently than I learn/train but I'm still doing it!

Youd see rounder punches because of the space i need with 16oz gloves.
A lack of several habbit actions wouldnt come out, like elbows and stomps...so i counter that with using more round punches like hooks etc.

Gloves don't prevent or limit you from using WCK punches. You are essentially saying that you throw out WCK movement for boxing movement but are still doing WCK. No, you're not. Once you stop using WCK movement, you stop using WCK and you stop using your WCK training.

You can say it looks like im boxing but in fact i create round punches in a different way to boxing. Im not widening my elbow away from my body... my turning body creates the round shape still adhering to techniques in my VT.
It snaps in a different way and takes a differnt path but "looks" similar cause its still a punch dam it LOL

It "looks" like boxing because you are using boxing movement (technique). And if you don't train boxing, then you are most likely using the movement poorly. You've thrown out your WCK for something else that you don't train.

If you were using WCK "technique" it would look like WCK. You can't use WCK technique and have it not look like WCK. We all do turning punches in WCK and they look like turning punches, not boxing punches.

You would see habbit actions like Tan to open space for my punch, if anything it is more pronounced as my punch requires more space with a glove on.
Youd see me Parry (Pak) actions like jabs and even crosses.

If you're fighting on the outside and "parrying" jabs and crosses (where do people come up with these ideas?), you're kickboxing.

Youd see me bong Guarn or Gum kicks.
I use front kicks like my Kickboxer sparring partners but my touch point is differnt and i raise the action differnt, my body support is differnt but to a lamen it looks similar......so i feel you should see elements of VT not something totally foreign to other fighting arts...

In other words, you're using the same movements as the kickboxers but you may see "elements" of WCK -- well, that's exactly what all "WCK kickboxers" do: they mainly kickbox using nonWCK movement and occassionally try and perform a WCK movement (a "parrying" pak sao, for example) here and there.

Its when you see nothing that resembles VT then theres a problem.

DREW

Imagine a boxer saying when I spar, what I do doesn't really look like what I have learned or train to do (in terms of movement) but I do occassionally throw in a boxing movement -- and I don't have a problem with that, after all, it is only when you don't see anything that resembles boxing movement that you've got a problem.

[Edmund]

and i personally believe if you dont see what i call the base habbit actions of VT. Bong Tan Pak. the diff stepping shapes and weight dist, the timing behaviour - action vs reaction.... in such a setting. That particular person doesnt belong in the comp using VT in the first place.

I think that's a really good point.
Base habits and concepts like timing and angles are the most important foundations that apply in all sorts of settings whether it's san shou comps or self defence.

If you only rely on close quarters skills without those base skills, I think you're going to be very ill prepared for any form of fighting. Not all fights are going to be in close quarters.

Functional wing chun has got to look very similar to boxing, kickboxing, etc. until if and when the fight is very close quarter - and even then there's much that will happen that can and will look alot like boxing or Muay Thai

Agreed. When people complain it looks like kickboxing, it's actually looking like a real fight with big strikes at long range. This is what real fights look like until they clinch up.

Having said that, you can tell the difference in MA backgrounds of kickboxers IF you know what to look for. San Shou fighters look different from MT. Some kickboxers have a karate background and others have a TKD background. They have visible differences that a lay person can't see.

WC fighters also have their own characteristics based on how they've trained.
The WC exercises that aren't in contact range give WC fighters a different look from other kickboxers: e.g. drills involving long range strikes and movements.

i think wing chunners have to adjust their training and fighting methods for competition, just like every other art, depending on the venue. bjj, wrestling, boxers, thai boxers everyone changes for mma vs other forms of comp vs self defense. Stances change, strikes change, grappling changes so does the training methods... it comes down to the athlete not the "style"

Yeah. I think you'd have to adjust if you want to compete. To think you can just train as normal to enter a san shou competition would be completely arrogant and ignorant.

You'd have to tailor your training to emphasize the striking and throwing aspects of WC and not the chi sao.

[Edmund]

Gloves don't prevent or limit you from using WCK punches. You are essentially saying that you throw out WCK movement for boxing movement but are still doing WCK. No, you're not. Once you stop using WCK movement, you stop using WCK and you stop using your WCK training.

What the? If you don't adapt your punch to the fact that you've put 16 oz gloves on you are an idiot..... It makes a big difference. They're not small gloves.

If you were using WCK "technique" it would look like WCK. You can't use WCK technique and have it not look like WCK. We all do turning punches in WCK and they look like turning punches, not boxing punches.

You're kidding right? Turning punches? That's like a retard drill. That crap doesn't work in a fight. Unless firing off a single punch per second is somehow a good thing. You're turning your whole body every punch.

These are the skills you're expecting to use in a fight?
I think they won't work.

In other words, you're using the same movements as the kickboxers but you may see "elements" of WCK -- well, that's exactly what all "WCK kickboxers" do: they mainly kickbox using nonWCK movement and occassionally try and perform a WCK movement (a "parrying" pak sao, for example) here and there.

How about you don't try to rephrase Liddel's words because they make too much sense?

He specifically listed his personal differences between himself and other kickboxers (who he actually SPARS with). Since you can't rebutt them, you just ignore.

Everyone is a glorified kickboxer except yourself huh? Rename yourself to HardWork9.

[t_niehoff]

What the? If you don't adapt your punch to the fact that you've put 16 oz gloves on you are an idiot..... It makes a big difference. They're not small gloves.

It doesn't make any difference in terms of the punch (hey, put a 16 oz. glove on and do the punch like you do in the first form -- having any trouble? no). The gloves do make a difference in other things you do, but that wasn't the point. Why WCK people are wearing 16 oz. gloves makes no sense to me, btw -- except that they are doing boxing/kickboxing.

You're kidding right? Turning punches? That's like a retard drill. That crap doesn't work in a fight. Unless firing off a single punch per second is somehow a good thing. You're turning your whole body every punch.

No, I'm not kidding. I'm not saying that you turn back and forth throwing punches -- obviously you need to know where, when, how to use the turning punch. Hint: it's not on the outside (why you don't see kickboxers use it).

These are the skills you're expecting to use in a fight?
I think they won't work.

Well, they won't work in kickboxing range (the outside) -- they are contact skills, to be used while attached to your opponent. Since WCK kickboxers fight on the outside, they can't make most of their WCK movement/skills work as they are attached, contact movement/skills.

How about you don't try to rephrase Liddel's words because they make too much sense?

He specifically listed his personal differences between himself and other kickboxers (who he actually SPARS with). Since you can't rebutt them, you just ignore.

That he spars is a good thing; that he spars without using WCK movement won't develop his WCK. Practice kickboxing and you develop kickboxing.

I'm not rebutting what he says because what he is saying is that he is doing kickboxing -- oh, he does kickboxing movements a bit differently. BFD. I don't care how he does his kickboxing. That misses the point: he's not using WCK movement in his sparring (except throwing in an occassional WCK movement from time to time). When you are not using WCK movement (however your kickboxing looks differently than other kickboxers), you're not doing WCK or using WCK principles.

Everyone is a glorified kickboxer except yourself huh? Rename yourself to HardWork9.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that if you try to use (fight with) WCK on the outside (in free movement), you won't be able to use WCK movement (and WCK principles). It's the same if you try to use greco movement on the outside -- you can't. That's not where that sort of movement works. WCK movement is inside movement, attached-fighting movement (why we practice that movement while in contact with a dummy or a partner (chi sao)). Try to use it or fight on the outside, and you will need to do kickboxing because kickboxiing movement is what works on the outside, in free-movement.

I thought even an "idiot" and "retard" could grasp that.

[Edmund]

It doesn't make any difference in terms of the punch (hey, put a 16 oz. glove on and do the punch like you do in the first form -- having any trouble? no).

LOL. I think it changes things. 16 oz are big gloves. Trying doing a form is the wrong test. Try fighting with them.

No, I'm not kidding. I'm not saying that you turn back and forth throwing punches -- obviously you need to know where, when, how to use the turning punch. Hint: it's not on the outside (why you don't see kickboxers use it).

I don't agree. They have very little use. Terrible example IMO.

Well, they won't work in kickboxing range (the outside) -- they are contact skills, to be used while attached to your opponent. Since WCK kickboxers fight on the outside, they can't make most of their WCK movement/skills work as they are attached, contact movement/skills.

There are other WC skills that don't involve contact.
You probably don't practice them unlike Liddel who actually spars against other MAists.

I'm not rebutting what he says because what he is saying is that he is doing kickboxing -- oh, he does kickboxing movements a bit differently. BFD. I don't care how he does his kickboxing.

You're saying he's a glorified kickboxer not a WC person.
It's a lame arg that HW8 uses as well: "You aren't doing WC"

[Liddel]

The issue isn't similarity or dissimilarlity -- comparisons will always produce similarities. The issue is: are you doing what (the movement) you learn and train to do when you fight? If you learn/train movement X (WCK) but then do movement Y when you fight, you're not using your training.

Yes i totally agree...which lends to this...

That's what they all say -- I'm doing things differently than I learn/train but I'm still doing it!

I feel where your argument is stuck T is that the setting of competition is different to my training. so it stands to reason there will be
adaptations you wont see the same adaptations in a free for all fight. No change necessary. If i train with no pads full contact anything goes...

Same setting = same behaviour.

Gloves don't prevent or limit you from using WCK punches. You are essentially saying that you throw out WCK movement for boxing movement but are still doing WCK. No, you're not. Once you stop using WCK movement, you stop using WCK and you stop using your WCK training.

Thats a gross assumption bro. I dont throw it out... i marginally adapt it...

One example - The whole reason i use a vertical fist is due to space required to get it inside a guard, if the size of my fist changes so must the whole i need to get it to the same spot... theres a downstream effect with some actions IMO

It "looks" like boxing because you are using boxing movement (technique). And if you don't train boxing, then you are most likely using the movement poorly. You've thrown out your WCK for something else that you don't train.

Yopur getting caught up with what i call (or my use of the word) "similar".
Perhaps if you witnessed me spar youd call it VT for all i know.
Dont get caught up in the wording. The boxing MMAs do in UFC isnt considered typical boxing by my boxing friends they call it brawling...LOL
Perspective is everything.

If you were using WCK "technique" it would look like WCK.

This is worthless IMO, what does VT look like ?
Stick with the fighting should look like your training, cause everybodies VT looks different to me.

If you're fighting on the outside and "parrying" jabs and crosses (where do people come up with these ideas?), you're kickboxing.

LOL BS. My VT contains Pak Sao on the outside and inside, its part of the Dummy actions as well as being in the form. The tell tale sign is the energy, and touch point. Last time i checked boxing doesnt parry like VT and vice versa.

KB doesnt have an exclusive on parrying T in fact i think my sparring partners (7 years in KB) dont parry all that good compared to me.
Although if i tried it with Ernando houst (sp) the outcome would be differnt LOL

We're close in opinion im just not so fixed on what VT is and isnt i think.
We can call what we do VT but in reality we could be worlds apart. State of the style man....

DREW

[Liddel]

I'm not rebutting what he says because what he is saying is that he is doing kickboxing -- oh, he does kickboxing movements a bit differently. BFD. I don't care how he does his kickboxing. That misses the point:

No you miss the point - im an open minded individual who posted from the POV that someone (not me) could assume its KB from just look ing a dn not sparring with me.... But i furthed my POV stating why it is VT.

I personally think i look like VT and more importantly are mirroring what i do in training. If anything in a friendly sparring platform im doing less than what i do in training, my buddies get ****ed when they use kickboxing and side kick my lead leg only to have me stomp a knee and drop them right away. Mook Jong 101 LOL

End of.

DREW

[Ultimatewingchun]

"You're kidding right? Turning punches? That's like a retard drill. That crap doesn't work in a fight. Unless firing off a single punch per second is somehow a good thing. You're turning your whole body every punch." (Edmund)


***YOU'RE catching on, Edmund.

[t_niehoff]

I feel where your argument is stuck T is that the setting of competition is different to my training. so it stands to reason there will be
adaptations you wont see the same adaptations in a free for all fight. No change necessary. If i train with no pads full contact anything goes...

My point is that WCK (used in sparring/fighting) will "look" like WCK -- like the movement you see in the forms, in the dummy, in the drills (chi sao) -- or you are not doing WCK, you're doing something else. Moreover, I'm also saying that a person can't move like that in kickboxing 'range', that you can't move like you do in chi sao or in the dummy, in a noncontact, nonattached fighting/sparring environment. At the free-movement, outside range you can kickbox and throw in an occassional WCK "technique" but won't be able to sustain WCK movement on the outside. So, if someone says they are using WCK on the outside, I think they are kidding themselves (and others). On the outside, a person can either kickbox or go "WCK caveman" (straight blast and front kick).

Thats a gross assumption bro. I dont throw it out... i marginally adapt it...

One example - The whole reason i use a vertical fist is due to space required to get it inside a guard, if the size of my fist changes so must the whole i need to get it to the same spot... theres a downstream effect with some actions IMO

The whole reason I use a vertical fist is functional (I NEED to) -- because on the inside you absolutely need to keep your elbow down, and if you have your elbow down your fist will naturally become "vertical". When your fist roates to horizontal, your elbow comes out --and on the inside this means disaster. So when you punch and you keep your elbow down, it is a vertical punch.

Yopur getting caught up with what i call (or my use of the word) "similar".
Perhaps if you witnessed me spar youd call it VT for all i know.
Dont get caught up in the wording. The boxing MMAs do in UFC isnt considered typical boxing by my boxing friends they call it brawling...LOL
Perspective is everything.

It is boxing because they are using boxing movement. Even "modified" for MMA it still "looks" like boxing (and not karate, not WCK, not etc.).

My point is that if you are sparring on the outside it won't be WCK because it can't -- as sustained WCK movement won't work on the outside. This is like me saying if you use it on the outside it isn't greco. You can't modify greco movement to work on the outside, and you can't modify WCK movement to work on the outside. They are both inside, contact, attached methods. And their movement reflects that. You can only use sustained greco or WCK movement on the inside.

This is worthless IMO, what does VT look like ?
Stick with the fighting should look like your training, cause everybodies VT looks different to me.

Everyone's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc. is different yet we can look at it and recognize the art instantly because each discipline has movement that identifies it, and all their practitioners will use a subset of that movement individualized to suit them.

LOL BS. My VT contains Pak Sao on the outside and inside, its part of the Dummy actions as well as being in the form. The tell tale sign is the energy, and touch point. Last time i checked boxing doesnt parry like VT and vice versa.

If someone kickboxex and does occasional WCK movements they are not doing WCK, they are kickboxing and using occasional WCK movements (even if they are movements from the dummy). WCK is using all WCK movement all the time, in everything you do. The WCK movement is sustained throughout the fight. That's doing WCK. The "tell tale" sign isn't the "energy" or the"concept" (that isn't true for boxing or wrestling and it isn't true for WCK): it is the movement, what they are doing. When you look at chi sao/gor sao, for example, you see sustained WCK movement, right? Yet when you see the same people spar, that sustained WCK movement is gone, replaced with other, nonWCK movement and an occasional WCK "technique." Why? Because WCK movement won't "work" at the kickboxing, outside range. So they will out of necessity need to do something else besides WCK movement if they want to fight at that range. Hence the kickboxing (which is the appropriate movement for that range).

As I said, I think kickboxing is great. But it is not WCK.

[KPM]

I gotta agree with Terence. But with one caveat. I think Wing Chun CAN be done on the outside.....but as a bridge to get to the inside where you can pour it on. I don't think Wing Chun was designed to be a long-range fighting method. Close quickly and get to where your Wing Chun was meant to work. If you are throwing kicks and punches from the outside and making your fight on the outside, then it ain't Wing Chun! But you have to be able to get to the inside, and Wing Chun has ways to do that....and it ain't kickboxing!

[t_niehoff]

I gotta agree with Terence. But with one caveat. I think Wing Chun CAN be done on the outside.....but as a bridge to get to the inside where you can pour it on. I don't think Wing Chun was designed to be a long-range fighting method. Close quickly and get to where your Wing Chun was meant to work. If you are throwing kicks and punches from the outside and making your fight on the outside, then it ain't Wing Chun! But you have to be able to get to the inside, and Wing Chun has ways to do that....and it ain't kickboxing!

Keith, in my view WCK does have "ways" (tactics/movements) to get inside -- there wouldn't be much of a point to having an inside game if you never could get to the inside (and get there safely).

FWIW, I don't think it useful or proper to talk about what WCK was "designed for". We don't and can't know that. We can't even say with any assaurance that WCK was "designed" (my own view is that it probably wasn't designed but evolved along side many similar approaches). What we can say, however, is that WCK is fighting with WCK movement (which can be said of any martial art, and that if we aren't using the movement, we aren't doing the art).

[Liddel]

I understand where your coming from T and i agree to an extent. But hey my KB buddies want to spar with me outside our respective training.

They want to put on the gloves and bang, and i love the experience of mixing it up with other styels so i play by thier rules. Im being honest when i describe the changes i feel i have to make and i guess the biggest thing one can take from that is that im still learning and adapting myself to this platform.

The biggest thing in relation to this discussion is that - the changes i make, i feel are minimal compared to my actions that remain distinctivly Ving Tsun.

That said, i still know that my VT can and does work at longer ranges although i think you hit the nail on the head with the use of the word 'sustained'.

Fighting from longer range is not something i totaly adhere to, its not like i hang out there as my bread and butter strategy...its more like picking and choosing my bridging/ranging techs, i never hang out there i just prefer to time my entries well.

Ive never been one to unintellegently crash someones center just because...

Good chat
DREW

[Edmund]

I gotta agree with Terence. But with one caveat. I think Wing Chun CAN be done on the outside.....but as a bridge to get to the inside where you can pour it on. I don't think Wing Chun was designed to be a long-range fighting method. Close quickly and get to where your Wing Chun was meant to work. If you are throwing kicks and punches from the outside and making your fight on the outside, then it ain't Wing Chun! But you have to be able to get to the inside, and Wing Chun has ways to do that....and it ain't kickboxing!

Both of you are missing the point which was "how to adapt to san shou comps".

If you're unwilling to adapt, you won't win. You're stuck on trying to imitate your WC movement rather than using what fits the situation.

[KPM]

Both of you are missing the point which was "how to adapt to san shou comps".

If you're unwilling to adapt, you won't win. You're stuck on trying to imitate your WC movement rather than using what fits the situation.

No. I don't think either of us have missed the point. I think Wing Chun can still be effective in San shou comps. Its just that if you go in doing most of your fighting on the outside then you aren't doing Wing Chun. You have to be willing to bridge in and close with the guy quickly and make your fight on the inside. I'm not familiar enough with the rules to know how workable that is. But if the rules don't allow for that, then the situation created is a false one. You wouldn't be adapting Wing Chun to it, you would be creating something separate....maybe a "Wing Chun-ized Kickboxing", but not straight-up Wing Chun. Now there is nothing wrong with doing a version of Kick-boxing on the outside, and then transitioning to straight-up Wing Chun on the inside. From what Victor has posted it sounds like this is his approach. But don't let yourself think that you are doing "traditional", "original", "authentic" or "old-fashioned" Wing Chun (whatever that is) if you are fighting on the outside. I can't speak for Terence, but I think that was his point.

[Edmund]

Who said San Shou was straight up wing chun? No one!

It's called cross training...