What do you think of Wing Chun in Sanshou competitions?

[Edmund]

Stonecrusher wrote:

Who was the one doing W.C.?

---I couldn't tell in either clip! I guess they have "adapted" their Wing Chun so well to San Sau competition so that it is unrecognizable!



Lonetiger wrote:

Regardless of what you face, Wing Chun is Wing Chun after all isn't it?

---If those clips are supposed to be representative of Wing Chun in San Sau competition, then the answer is....evidently not!!! But then, since Ed is supposed to be the paragon of virtue, I guess I just need to get over myself!

Maybe you should. As should Stonecrusher69.
You're criticising them for not doing WC: "They didn't look like they were doing WC"

The objective is to do San shou. i.e. Learn something via competing with people doing something other than your own style.

The WC person was the guy wearing black in the first clip and the guy wearing red in the second clip. It's obvious because they are the ones who were punching in combinations and trying to walk forward with their punches. They were landing good punches as well and punching far better than their opponents.

Well done to both guys.

[anerlich]

I have to question some of the attitudes on display here.

The guys in those clips appear to be young guys with a few years training. They are out to win the match, not put up some demonstration of stylistic purity. If you think there are better vids of WC in a sporting context, or any other fight against a resisting opponent, please post them.

What, there are no demos of elite level WC guys in sporting contexts? Only those too immature in the style to know you can't actually use WC in sportfighting, or who can't do it well enough so that they have to use cruder, but more high percentage techniques - which actually work?

The supposed "purists" don't seem to fight competitively. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that they don't want to because they know they're going to get their a$$e$ handed to them, and that would derail their money trains, and make them sound like hypocrites when continuing their critical bombast on internet fora.

And the "real Wing Chun is too dangerous" excuse is ridiculous and bloown out of thje water by numerous counterexamples already mentioned.

Hardwork8, not someone I see eye to eye with on issues, posted another competitve clip a while ago of a WC guy against a karateka. His stuff looked a bit more like WC, for those that for some strange reason think this should have been his goal, other than winning.

Props to any WC guy who gets in the ring or has done so in the past. We should get behind these guys, not insult them IMO.

Brickbats to those whose only outlets are chi sao demos and imaginary streetfights demonstrating the pure system. JF Springer's fate should demonstrate where that leads.

[KPM]

Andrew wrote:

The guys in those clips appear to be young guys with a few years training. They are out to win the match, not put up some demonstration of stylistic purity.

---Good point. I think we may have been a bit unfair to them in our criticisms. But then those clips shouldn't be held up as what Wing Chun will look like in San Sau competition, precisely because they are likely beginners and don't have a good Wing Chun foundation.


If you think there are better vids of WC in a sporting context, or any other fight against a resisting opponent, please post them.

---The vids I have seen of Alan Orr's guys in action are much better! The Wing Chun IS recognizable! But I don't have links to clips to post. Surely the guys in your gym look better than the guys in those two clips? I haven't seen you or your comrades in action, but from what I've read I have some faith in the skills of your teacher and the quality of training in your gym. Again, surely you guys do better than the two young Wing Chun fighters in those clips?



And the "real Wing Chun is too dangerous" excuse is ridiculous and bloown out of thje water by numerous counterexamples already mentioned.

---I definetly agree with that! I've always thought that was a bogus argument.


Hardwork8, not someone I see eye to eye with on issues, posted another competitve clip a while ago of a WC guy against a karateka. His stuff looked a bit more like WC, for those that for some strange reason think this should have been his goal, other than winning.

---The goal should be to win, no to look a certain way. But its not a good reflection on one's quality of training if all of your structure and technique goes out the window the minute its put under stress. If you are going to look like some form of kickboxing when you try to fight under stress, then one should just train that way and forget about good Wing Chun structure. One should just concentrate on the "crude high percentage techniques" as you referred to them. Why waste time on traditional Wing Chun training? And I'm not trying to be an a-hole. There might actually be some truth to this line of thought! After all, the guys doing Muay Thai don't worry about looking like they are doing Muay Thai, but they are unmistakeable in the ring. Maybe that's because its all "high percentage" technique?


Props to any WC guy who gets in the ring or has done so in the past. We should get behind these guys, not insult them IMO.

---I agree. And I intended no insult to the young guys in those clips. I was only trying to say that if they are being held up as what Wing Chun should look like in San Sao competition, then just forget the Wing Chun and kickbox!

[Liddel]

Its a little off putting when you realise that the majority of VT out thier isnt for fighting, based on what we see... this isnt a slight on a persons style/lineage rather just peoples approach to training really.

This has to be the obvious reason we dont see lots of vids out there...lots of competent vids anyway

I mean, Andrews clip of his teacher posted eairlier this year had a part with a ring fight where you could see actions that were not VT and ones that were...it was a good example because hes a mix of styles and if you can determine which actions are which style etc hes doing something right IMHO.

I remember seeing a Bong used to protect against a side kick and he had 16 or 18oz gloves on for crying out loud. Its was VT through and through (for that action)... no denying it.

Its obvious that if you dont see the very basics used which IMO are Tan Pak and Bong, regardless of effectivness..then the level of VT for that practitioner isnt that high.... they are chi sau kings

If your adapting actions like punches etc stepping and range, IME this can help your VT in certain settings but you still have to have the basics at the very least.

Come on guys...

DREW

[stonecrusher69]

I myself did not to be overly harsh, but I think if you claim to be a WC fighter and I don't see even the basic punch used( in the first clip) I have to question it.

[anerlich]

I myself did not to be overly harsh, but I think if you claim to be a WC fighter and I don't see even the basic punch used( in the first clip) I have to question it.

Did either guy actually claim to be doing Wing Chun? Maybe it was there somewhere in the text superimposed at the start. No point denigrating claims they don't actually make themselves.

I referreed at a BJJ tourney here on Sunday. Over 200 fighters from Sydney and other parts of the state. There are pics up on the web and no doubts some vids licking around as well. No one's going to say "those guys didn't use BJJ!".

That and we still can't find more than a few WC sportfighters in the whole of modern history, and the ones that do are apparently poor reps of the art. What a parlous state of affairs.

One should just concentrate on the "crude high percentage techniques" as you referred to them. Why waste time on traditional Wing Chun training? And I'm not trying to be an a-hole.

These are legit questions for the WC populace as a whole based on the evidence provided (basically zero). and I'm not trying to be a tool either.

Keith, Liddel. thanks for the good words about my instructor.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I mean, Andrews clip of his teacher posted earlier this year had a part with a ring fight..."


***WHAT'S the link to that fight, Andrew? Would like to see that.

[anerlich]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwxUSBgrB3I

NB - this was a demo match with a senior student.

Rick has had 37 pro kickboxing matches, > 100 amateur matches, and had demo matches with Benny Urquidez and Bill Wallace.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwxUSBgrB3I

NB - this was a demo match with a senior student.

Rick has had 37 pro kickboxing matches, > 100 amateur matches, and had demo matches with Benny Urquidez and Bill Wallace.

I have always liked his stuff, you can see the power, the fluidness.
Good stuff.

[Wayfaring]

San shou's format gives high point advantages to throws. Skilled san shou fighters I've seen - mostly Cung Le students - tend to have basic to good striking kickboxing skills, but cross the bridge or space very quickly to clinch range and use judo throws and wrestling takedowns that they have trained well.

The throws score 1-3 points. Those who are not skilled at throws or takedowns in every match I have seen are outscored by those who do. So very basic logic here tells you that those are areas to train to win san shou matches.

Can you adapt WC to san shou matches? Of course you can. However, if you can't throw or take someone down you'll still likely lose, unless you are so good at protecting your bridge nobody can clinch with you. That's hard when you're fresh - harder when you're tired.

A lot of argument here is differences between WC principles and WC movements. In my view WC movements like tan, bong, fuk are tools to accomplish the principles. To keep and attack centerline, you need better tools than a boxer's guard. Sports with padding on the hands affect the tools, so they too must be adapted in a sport situation.

Sometimes the adapted tools with WC principles may look a lot like other skilled sport fighters. Like for instance, the 1 inch difference in a flanking step that works and one that doesn't. Or the 1 inch difference stepping in opening a centerline or not. I watched a Klitschko boxing match where that 1 inch step put him in short power distance up the middle all match, and he easily won. He wasn't doing WC - he's a boxer. But he was illustrating a WC principle more clearly than a whole lot of WC youtube clips.

So I don't know - I guess you could be a semantic a$$ and say that if you're not using strict WC tools you're not doing WC. But honestly, the WC I've learned that helps me the most are the principles which I'm able to use across many cross-training scenarios and sport match scenarios.

Buy hey, YMMV.