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Thread: The Value of Chinese Boxing

  1. #1
    Magnus750 Guest

    The Value of Chinese Boxing

    Hello, I have a few points that I would like to discuss with any Chinese Boxing practitioners that would care to contribute. As you may or may not know, Chinese Boxing has come under a lot of negative attention lately since it was revealed that the majority of so-called "kung fu" schools in the United States are fraudulent and teach only sport "wushu" that is useless for fighting. These same schools teach only "flowering hands and embroidered legs", and get humiliated by the non-traditional brawlers and wrestlers who practice a less developed art, but against resisting opponents in real competition. The meaning of "traditional" has come to mean "point sparring nonsense" in this country. In reality, Traditional Chinese Boxing refers to the practice of Fajin in various systems. Fajin is an action/concept. It means "to issue power". Various methods of generating rotational and connected hitting power and leverage are used, using concepts that involve kinematic chains (sequence of joint actions) and shifting/launching of the weight into strikes, involving very clear and identifiable physics concepts that always result in far greater power being generated than would otherwise be possible. It is a mechanism; when done correctly, it will work every time. There is no "mystical, magical chi/ki/voodoo" that makes it work. I know that the existence of "chi" has been documented (read Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's books on the subject) scientifically, but in this country it is a misnomer. "Chi" is used as a mystical "buzz word" for generating sales in our money hungry society, and has been abused so much that the entire concept will get nothing but a round of laughs from most full contact fighters. Therefore, I would like to limit this conversation to the scientific aspects of the Fajin concepts. Some boxers have developed certain Jin patterns that they use to great effect against their opponents; mostly they have learned to use rotational hitting power. Then again, I have seen some boxers that are arm punchers, and after 45 minutes (15 rounds) of pounding on an opponent, only manage to give him a few bruises. This is not right. (continued)

  2. #2
    Magnus750 Guest


    The kung fu that has been sold is "wu shu" an acrobatic performance art. Jujitsu is derived from chin na, which is the grappling element in Chinese martial arts, also, many san shou fighters have chinese ma backgrounds. Someone on the ug posted that back in the '70's there were some Chinese boxers who defeated thai boxers in an exhibition. The Chinese government banned and persecuted real Chinese ma for a long time, so it is quite rare nowadays except for the "wu shu" that is used for kung fu movies and demonstrations. Kind of like how a lot of real Karate and TKD got watered down after WWII and became point sparring, the ultra-violent version was lost. I trained in Chinese boxing and western boxing in a full-contact format, and the body mechanics of Chinese ma make the movements much more powerful. There are more joint actions involved, more momentum, the legs and waist are put to better use, and the hands and body are conditioned to withstand a lot of punishment. True Chinese boxing is primarily a punch and elbow martial art. Lots of palm strikes too, because it is actually easier to land a knockout with a palm than a fist without gloves on. Kicks are only very low, mostly to the knees and midsection. The overall quality of ma in the world has gone way down with all the phonies out there. Soon, you will have to go to China or Taiwan or Southeast Asia to find real fighting Asian ma. What a shame. Partly responsible is the ufc for inviting no namers and putting them up against good grapplers for the sake of discrediting the real ma and selling Gracie videos and the like. Truly a shame. They have cheated an uneducated public out of a very powerful fighting system. This new generation of fighters will only be able to wrestle, most of the nhb guys cannot punch at all. Recently, you can see great strikers with ground awareness like Igor V. pound the grappling craze into oblivion.

  3. #3
    Magnus750 Guest


    Before I go any further, are there any Chinese Boxing practitioners that train for reality, and/or fajin? There is nothing wrong with those that are "collectors of forms", as long as they recognize the difference... but I am interested in corresponding with those who share this vision of Chinese Boxing in which the concepts of Jin are used to make the power manifest, in which great impacts and takedowns are used, that will bring back the fighting value of the Chinese MA.

  4. #4
    BeiTangLang Guest


    Well, I kind of like the idea of some people being of the thought that I cannot fight using my art. It gives me an advantage right from the start. Yes, We do practice using Fa Jing in our fighting. There is no other way to learn how to & how much to, use it.
    Just an opinion,

    "Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"

  5. #5
    Magnus750 Guest

    well that depends on your point of view...

    I personally find the idea of public mockery to be disgraceful. We should distance ourselves from the frauds and contribute something of value. The MMA competitions are perhaps the best thing to come along in a long time, but it is being grossly mosrepresented right now with all the mismatches and works, to propegate the notion of grappling styles as the "ultimate" and other such nonsense in order to sell tapes and defame the asian MA. SEG and Rorion Gracie saw an opportunity to make a buck by selling themselves as the laughable "unbeatable" style after Royce and company beat a bunch of fake no namers (who walks into the ring with one boxing glove on???) like Art Jimmerson LOL... I think that Chinese MA needs reform. What is your opinion?

  6. #6
    Papieboni Guest

    True Chinese Kung Fu Needs No Reform

    I agree there are a lot of so called franchised Mcdonald like kung fu schools, some are good and some are not. In those schools you have instructors and students alike that are doing kung fu for sport, as art, as a hobby and some for life. If you are in the commmercial school business you cater to the individual need of the student because you depend on their capital to keep your doors open. Most people are not interested in TRADITIONAL Kung Fu. They are interested in something they can learn and use fast and say they achieved something. TRADITIONAL chinese kung fu takes time, committment, and hard work. Learning to fight, takes harder work and more time, most people especially in the USA don't have, dont wont or can't commit a lot of time to really learn how to apply the art in a manner it should be. It is easy to put gloves on students and teach them to "kickbox" than it is to teach them to "touch hands, sensitivity training, yielding, being soft until contact and ect." These things take additional time to learn especially when you only meet in class once or twice a week.

    Flashy Forms and Tag fighting attracts students because people see things that they can do and it doesnt look as if they have to be a professional to do it.

    Kung Fu today is not a necessity, If I want to harm someone I dont have to learn Iron, Sand, or Red palm techniques I just go by a gun off the street pull the trigger and dump it in the nearest trash can.

    Kung Fu is not a life necessity for Americans, although it has a lot of influence and it has made a living for many instructors coming from Hong Kong and China. Americans are more independent and the value system is different and so is the kung fu and the fighting. So like Karate, Tae Kwon Do and other styles, Kung Fu instructors if they are trying to make a living or propagate the systems, have to be more commercial to attract the non hardcore student. Those are the ones that are going to pay the rent not the hardcore ones that love to fight and think and live kung fu everyday, those are few.

    I think if you have a legitimate instructor in a commercial atmosphere and he notice that he has dedicated students that train hard and can remember and have the zeal for what you teah them then they will share more and have more zeal to teach more.

    In my opinion, it is a little more complicated than just Kung Fu needing reform, Kung Fu has been around for thousands of years. It needs no reform, the reform starts with the intentions and values of the individuals learning the system

  7. #7
    Magnus750 Guest


    But there needs to be some distinction, a separate "league" if you will, that caters to the fighters. San Shou might as well be Muay Thai without the elbows and knees, it is impractical. It is a step in the right direction, but we need a fighting "clan" that uses elbows, knees, clinching, groundfighting, and uses Jin patterns to get the most power efficiency out of each. The avenue for competition is already there: Mixed Martial Arts. This movement is becoming increasingly popular, and it weeds out the phonies and allows only the strong to win (in theory). This is a far cry from the first UFC, where there were mainly mismatches, and the winner was predetermined. I am looking at the big picture, the future of Chinese MA in a reality based community that wants real fighting systems, if only as a piece of our culture (fighting has been a spectacle since ancient times in every culture).
    As far as hurting someone with a gun, the same can be said of running them down in a car. Fighting ability is one thing; setting up circumstances to cause harm to another is something different. If I dropped a potted plant out of a third story window on the world's best sniper's head, does that mean that "guns suck"? Certainly not. It was circumstance. A gun is not fighting; a gun is a machine that does that for you. Hurting someone can be accomplished in innumerable ways, this is about a specific set of skills that I don't want to see die out.

  8. #8
    bamboo_ leaf Guest
    some very good insights, in my many travels in South East Asia, the people i've meet really respected CMA arts. Even in Thailand CMA arts are widely respected for thire usefuleness and fighting ablity. And your most correct in stating that the Chinese have some amzing ablitys to issure power, no it's not magic just a lot of practice and understanding.

    very intresting and good post, thanks [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    enjoy life

    bamboo leaf

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