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Thread: one of the better wing chun clips on youtube

  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by unkokusai View Post
    You fail, idiot.
    How about covering the mirror? That might stop you sending hate messages to yourself?

  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardWork8 View Post
    I said stop talking to yourself in such a negative manner! Be positive! Do you do this in front of a mirror?
    You fail again, idiot.

  3. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by unkokusai View Post
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xlRPDh...eature=related




    Kind of hard to get anything from this 'cause the 'dude' in the brown shirt was just so bad. The WC guy was shutting him down alright, but I think he could have done so if he had never studied anything more than being aggressive. Not a knock on WC, just pointlessly lopsided. Now if the 'dude' was some kind of kickboxing champion I'd be mighty impressed. Mighty surprised, but mighty impressed.
    The link did not work and this time I mean the video link and not your neurons.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by unkokusai View Post
    You fail again, idiot.
    I tell you what, I 'll let you talk insultingly to yourself and hopefully you will get rid of whatever it is that is bothering you. Some of us have lives you know.

    I hope you will thank me for at least trying to improve your self esteem.
    Last edited by HardWork8; 10-15-2008 at 12:04 AM.

  5. #320
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    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZegFuKZAyUc&NR=1



    At least through the first two minutes this looked like a lot of underfed kids flailing at each other. I like the aggression, but I reckon the (actual) experienced WC guys wouldn't like that to stand as the paragon of skill in their art. I liked the part where one kid started kicking away when the other one reached out to touch gloves!

    And some may hate to hear it but if any of those kids had the least idea about takedowns they would have had an enormous advantage over the other flailers.

    GNP seemed a popular concept at least. Some additional training would help them get there with more control (to say the least).

  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardWork8 View Post
    I tell you what, I 'll let you talk insultingly to yourself


    You fail again, idiot.



    (this certainly seems to be what you're after)

  7. #322
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    The poor man must hate himself. It is amazing how unkokusai keeps going on and on insulting himself in that manner.
    Last edited by HardWork8; 10-15-2008 at 02:06 AM.

  8. #323
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    you could just beg someone to close the thread if that's what you want so badly

    Quote Originally Posted by HardWork8 View Post
    The poor man must hate himself. It is amazing how unkokusai keeps going on and on insulting himself in that manner.


    You fail again, idiot.

  9. #324
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    'cause I've been trying

    So I guess trying to discuss the topic is out of the question then?

  10. #325
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    Christ! first unkokusai was insulting himself and now he is arguing with himself.

  11. #326
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    You fail again, idiot.

  12. #327
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    For the record, I have actually tried to discuss the topic. If HW8 ever gets tired of the third-grade 'humor' I'd like to try to discuss the topic again. But there doesn't look to be much hope of that...

  13. #328
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    Gah! It's hard work wading through this thread. Thanks to cjurakpt and Mr. Punch for maintaining a positive and informative dialogue throughout.

    Thanks for the detailed explanations. They do largely go over my head I must admit but I like to see that the traditional Chinese model can be supported by modern studies of physiology and anatomy.

    Mr. Punch, yes the other dantien are known by different names. Tanzhong for the one just above the sternum (midpoint between nipp1es) and the Renzhong point between the nose and upper lip. Those are the only ones I know other than the one below the navel.

    I'm sure Mr Jurak can shed some light on the subject; I concur that he is a good writer.

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch View Post
    One word answer: structure.
    Thanks. I personally believe (and know) that there is much more to internal training then just structure. However, I appreciate that an important part of the internals is structure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    Well, I guess this is an internet image problem thing. I've got myself into a lot of trouble with various people on the net for 'speaking' frankly, but I don't really know how to present myself 'better' on these kind of forums. I don't have any of these problems face to face.
    You could have taken those words out of my mouth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    And to be fair, while I'm sorry for my apparent attitude, you come across as a complete arse too!
    Those words too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    Er, maybe that doesn't make sense! How would my lack of knowledge of any field influence someone I 'met' being a pompous ****?
    Well if you lack the knowledge or if you have different references to me you might have thought that my insistance of what I knew to be right as pompous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    Apart from which, since I've said very little on the subject how do you know what my knowledge of internals is limited to?
    Assumptions are made in forums such as this all the time based on what we understand of things that are posted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    Many people have brought up examples to you of TCMA that are completely 'external' (if you even take a base definition) even if you don't agree that certain legitimate lines of WC are; ie Lau Gar, Hung Gar, CLF (though I'm not sure: there may be some internals in some CLF), White Eyebrow, Beggar... etc etc. The list is long. If you count one example of a meditative routine in one form as internal, maybe you have a point. I just thing it's wrong.
    Hung Gar, CLF, White Eyebrow all have internals, if anyone tells you otherwise then they don't know what they are talking about.

    Look, I know that you don't know me from Adam but take my word for it or better, look into it yourself believe me that if you search for the answer (not in these forums for gods sake) you will see that I am right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    The style is made up of various people, no? If the people in that style don't emphasise any internal... ipso facto.
    It is a cultural thing. The balance, the Yin and Yang. Without one the other is meaningless. You need both external and internal in Chinese Kung fu, not necessarily in the same proportions but you need them both. That is how they were designed. I'll try and find more proof for you now that I suspect that you are genuinely interested.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    My WC teachers have always emphasized that real kung fu IS boring: it's hard work.
    So does my Wing Chun and my current Kung Fu (none-Wing Chun) teacher here in London. Actually he warns most newbies that the style is boring on the first day. But then neither one of my sifus in it for the money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    And BTW, I have asked my teachers exactly what they meant. They meant breathing naturally: specifically ignoring the intent part, the chi part, the dantien. The intent in wing chun is in lat sau jeuk chung (sp?!): it is the natural (well, 'trained natural') forward energy to strike. Hence the emptiness, the chan.
    I appreciate forward intent of Wing Chun. However, when training "deep" breathing one must put intention in the dantien specially during special exercises. However, during normal exercise routines the breathing is still from the dantien but does not monopolise the intention.

    To me the emptiness refers to the no mind concept - just to "be".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    Books. Talk to the high ranking Cheung students here and ask how much dantien breathing has featured in their practice over the years.
    But again there the fact that the internals are present in all styles. Then there is the book, which is called "How to develop chi power" by William Cheung. Here is a link to a William Cheung Chi kung Seminar (1999):

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cNcKSunk4nA

    Here is another clip of another Chinese sifu talking about chi kung and its relevance to Siu Lim Tao.

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7kFBHp9oB7g

    Then we also have sifu Ali Rahim who is from a Yip Man lineage who also practices the internals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    OK, well this is where I've got to take you up on this 'chest breathing' thing. I've lurked on a few boards and I don't know of anyone using that phrase.
    Chest breathing is just my description of upper body breathing as opposed to lower body breathing (dantien).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    When my teachers and I talk about breathing naturally without any mention of the dantien, we are still talking about concentrating on breathing by focusing on abdominal (diaphragmatic) contractions: just like I was taught in swimming, in tennis, in running, in darts, in snooker/pool, in archery, in boxing, in choir, in speechmaking, in MMA, in aikido, in karate, in kendo, in didgeridoo, in recorder. With the possible exception of swimming and sprinting when you're really going full belt and there's no other option, you don't see any of these people's chests move excessively. Bear that in mind as we move on to your discussion of dantien breathing method...
    But their breathing cannot be classified as dantien, except for that of karate, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    OK, first, thank you very much for taking the time to explain your breathing process: I know it's difficult for anyone, and that English isn't your first language.
    You are welcome and believe me that these type of explanations are difficult in one's first language as well, LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    I agree with most things in your paragraph. The bits we do differently, or that I disagree with I've bolded and I'll look at now.

    1) We tend to breathe in through the nose. We do not focus any 'intent' on our abdomen. From what I've been taught about intent....Your intent leads your strikes. If your intent is focused within yourself you do not have appropriate release of your power.
    You are absolutely right. Maybe I did not explain correctly but the intention in the dantien is during chi kung exercises during fighting training the same area is used but of course the primary intention is on striking and defending. As I said before, in time the dantien breathing should become a normal occurance during daily life.

    [QUOTE=Mr Punch)2) 'Not tension' - sometimes, for some strike patterns, tension in the abdomen is a good thing.[/quote]
    As I stated in our case the tension is subtle and originates at the moment of exhalation and the resultant expansion of the lower stomach and kidney area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    3) 'Breath is released from the pit of the stomach': this is obviously a digression from anatomical/physiological fact, and straying into visualization. I think this is the main difference between your 'dantien breathing' and my 'abdominal breathing': you use visualization.
    I suppose you could call it that or maybe (and I am not too sure about this) I breath "lower" than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    The charlatan internal teachers I've met in the East and West who couldn't tell you or demonstrate exactly what they wanted you to do physically would always talk about chi or use some analogy, some visualization. The good ones would use the analogy once you'd got it to some degree, just as a teaching tool. It's like the truism that in the East, people don't talk about 'chi/ki' as anything mystical, or pseudo-physical like it can be manipulated. I'm not saying that you're talking ****....
    Point taken but let's just put it this way, when my WC sifu hit me using the same breathing mechanism I felt my "chi" escaping out of my ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    I snipped this bit, because this is completely odd to me. The length of breath has no relation to the strike, though as you say, the contraction may do.... And it seems a little at odds with your statement earlier that you don't use tension in your abdomen in any strikes.
    It is a very internal concept. It is very difficult to explain but let me give you an example. Two punches delivered the same way and at the same target, that look to an observer as the same technique, will have different effects on the receiver if one of the strikes is from a "Dragon" kung fu stylist and the other from a Choy Li Fat stylist. The difference is the manner of breathing.

    The Dragon punch will penetrate deeper than the Choy li fat one.
    If this sounds strange to you the fair enough, but if you are really interested then you can look into it yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    LOL! My teacher taught us both, and said, 'Do what you like!'. Personally, I like that aspect of HK based attitudes.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Punch
    ...I don't mean attitude like 'good' or 'bad'.... HK teachers have a more relaxed attitude than some others I would say. I had a Malay WC acquaintance for a while too, who had a completely different attitude too. I say, somewhat nebulously, that some of SLT is for practising 'energies', so I'll say, 'Use this energy' or 'Use that energy', where other teachers may use a chi analogy. I can explain them all in terms of a fist hitting an opponent's body and explain them too though. And the intent is always externally projected: ie the focus is always on beating someone down (to put it crudely for effect).
    The energy training is supposed to also create softness and a state of relaxedness that is above what the average MA-ist sees as normal. This softness is externally projected as well, but it is an internal concept.

    From my training and research I have seen the TCMA belief that softness beats hardness. Of course, I am not talking about floppiness it is a kind of heavy softness. Again you can look this up. Once you research this area of TCMA then you will see the validity of the concepts

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjurakpt View Post
    when you inhale deeply w/"natural" breathing (abdomen relaxes / expands on inhalation), respiratory diaphragm descends and presses against the contents of the abdomen, which move in response because the anterior abdominal wall is not contracting; this slowly increases intra-abdominal pressure, which has the effect of "squeezing" or wringing out the abdominal viscera; this contributes to generalized lymphatic venous return, as well as mechanically stimulating the various viscera, which enhances function in general; again, because the abdominal contents are not firmly held in place when you do this, this seems to encourage a parasympathetic nervous system response (the de-stressing or "rest / digest" part of the autonomic nervous system), which has the effect of inhibiting stress response;

    the second type of breathing is a bit trickier to understand / explain, because of what you actively do while inhaling and exhaling; basically, when you inhale, you contract anterior abdominal wall, as well as pelvic floor (and also pedal arches, IMPE); this has the effect of creating a "box" where the intra-abdominal pressure increases more quickly and to a greater degree; as such, it limits movement of viscera and descent of the RD more quickly and therefore creates more movement of the rib cage earlier on, and has the effect of actually allowing for greater power of the RD to expand the lower / mid costal cage because it is stabilized more firmly now (some people call this thoracic breathing, but don't confuse that with upper chest breathing, because here it's still RD that's driving the breath, not the accessory muscles); in general, this has a tonifying effect on sympathetic nervous system ("fight /flight" or immune response); one reason for this is that it increases intra-abdominal and intra-thoracic pressure faster and to a greater degree, and also really mobilizes the rib-cage, because it expands it more; right next to where the ribs connect to the spine are, from T1 to T12, the sympathetic chain ganglion, which are "activated" by this combined movement / pressure; as such, you can feel "charged up" doing this sort of breathing: increase in BP, HR, you feel warmer, you can get the hair on your arms to stand up, that sort of thing; this is what yogi's call Fire Breathing; when practicing Taoist internal cultivation, this type breathing is often used to assist opening up various internal channels (e.g. - the whole imagery of "dragons ascending in the field" is based on this type of breath); the whole notion of "enticing the breath" is based on this; and that's why when you do this sort of breathing, you don't just tighten your gut and butt and huff / puff away - it's a lot more subtle than that, the way you "pluck up" the pelvic floor in conjunction with keeping the anterior abdominal wall firm - it's very easy to force this and end up with undesired results, which is why this sort of thing is not recommended to do on one's own as a beginner (for example, you can get a whopper of a headache if you push it too hard the wrong way);

    BTW, I'm sorry this wasn't six pages long and full of more unnecessary jargon; I will try to do better next time
    Well said, for a chi lacking kickboxer.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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