one of the better wing chun clips on youtube

[HardWork8]

Yep. Prepare to be assimilated.

I was "assimilated" into Glorified Kickboxing during my teens, in the 1980's when I joined and trained in a school that claimed to be teaching "Chinese Boxing". However what they taught was nothing more than a glorified form of kickboxing(so beloved by the many "kung fu-ists" posting in this forum), and honestly speaking it was not a bad school at all, as far as kickboxing was concerned but it WAS NOT REAL KUNG FU!

I have since grown out of training in kickboxing while thinking that it is kung fu and you will too, maybe in your next life, but you will grow out of it.

I won't. He seems to live in a reverse intellectual black hole, where no new information gets in past the reverse event horizon, but a constant shower of rubbish is expelled.

Says the man who practices "kung fu" but without the internals....LOL!
Says the man who practices "kung fu" together with BJJ and MMA....LOL!
Says the man who has no idea about the grappling techniques present in Wing Chun....an art that he apparently teaches.

You need to do some serious research on kung fu and find some serious answers and let me help you on your way by telling you that you are not going to find those answers in a BJJ nor an MMA school.

[HardWork8]

Well, I can admit to mixing the h e l l out of a video though...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGs28ywwct4

Interesting video it seems that Kali compliments Wing Chun and with good reason too. I remember being told by my sifu that Kali complimented Wing Chun quiet well.

[anerlich]

The evidence for my "reverse black hole" hypothesis continues to accumulate.

[HardWork8]

The evidence for my "reverse black hole" hypothesis continues to accumulate.

Only in your martially confused mind or shall I say you "MMA" mind?.

[anerlich]

HW8 wrote:

during my teens, in the 1980's

A teenager in the 1980's? Hmmm. From his posts, he sounds like he's yet to go through puberty.

OnTopic: the clip was OK.

[Graychuan]

Interesting video it seems that Kali compliments Wing Chun and with good reason too. I remember being told by my sifu that Kali complimented Wing Chun quiet well.

Ive been told the same. Ive also seen a general consensus on this and other forums. I havent seen a WC forum or group that doesnt have a Kali/Escrima/Arnis/etc. section and vice versa. As much as I trust my own experience in the arts and classical weapons I never really could contribute one way or another because I hadnt studied Sticks yet. Now that I am a humble two months in I cant help but to notice the basic drills of footwork are almost if not identical to Sek Ma and Som Gat Ma footwork in WC.
Most intersting is how the art Kali/Escrima/Arnis/IllustrussiWho? are all actually complete Fillipino Martial Arts that take you through a whole science of Sticks to Swords to Knives to Emptyhands. A Very Complete System.
Ive posted before about how Wing Chun as a teaching system teaches you from the inside-out although you fight outside-in. ( Ex. Slt-in close basic hand movements, CK- bridging sinking controlling, Bil Gee-closing bridging to gain initial contact or if contact is lost, like going to multiple opponents.). In Kali it seems to go from Sticks to Shortswords to Knives to Empty Hands.... Outside-in. Our Basic class structure is Warm-ups, drills, partner drills, basic technique with single stick, then with tantos(we like the tantos because they are cheap, and sturdy. You can really file a cutting motion on an oponent without it folding up or bending like the plastic or rubber knives.), then the same technique again with empty hands. Havent done anything with double sticks yet except the Heaven Six strikes.
Guru Ignacio is Philipino of Chinese ancestry. He originally learned from uncles in the islands. His grandfather actually moved to America not long after Guru and his training continued. Guru also has training in the Villabrille-Lacoste system. He has told of how in the old tribes one could tell the leaders from the soldiers because the highest rank chief had the smallest blade. I thought this was way kool.
I do not have the form but from what I have seen the Baat Chaam Dao has a ready stance with one hand slightly back and the other forward, both on guard and one leg slightly back. This is the way I am taught in Ignacio as well.
There is basic Form, Strikes, Blocks , Structure( Alot of triangles!!!) and Footwork but Ignacio doesnt concentrate on specific applications as much. More natural flow and forward momentum belive it or not( Its very apparent at the knives and empty hand stage).
Now remember my resume, Kempo14, TCC10,WC2, KALI 2/12. So for what all that hot air is worth Im having a blast and getting a **** good workout.

[HardWork8]

HW8 wrote:



A teenager in the 1980's? Hmmm. From his posts, he sounds like he's yet to go through puberty.

Why, because "he" practises REAL kung fu while you don't?

Or is it because "he" looks at kung fu as a rich martial art that needs to be practised holistically including its internal training, etc. while you don't?

Or maybe it is because "he" searchs for his answers inside kung fu and other relevant circles while you don't, preferring to search for your 'enlightenment' inside the knucklehead circles!

Sheesh. The more and more I read your deregotary posts, the less and less I want to visit Australia.

[couch]

That is fair enough, but real kung fu training was never about fast results, even if during periods of turmoil in China's history one can assume that some short cuts were made in some schools (and presumably by genuine masters or sifus of kung fu and not Tai Kwon Do or etc.). For example emphasising the weapon's mastery over unarmed combat skills.

"Real Kung-Fu" was never meant for fast results, hey? Where do you think all this Kung-Fu came from? People wanting to fight to start and end conflict (Read: War). So just like the armies of today - who need to learn things fast for conflict - Kung-Fu is no different.

The difference is the WING CHUN training itself which encompasses forms and the internals among other things just like other major (and non-major) kung fu styles. Once you pick and choose the aspects of a given style then you are moving away from that style.

The only thing Wing Chun training 'does' is reprogram the body's movements to augment your survival rate in combat. It teaches simple concepts like attacking the attack as a form of defense. In its most basic inception - it is a quick and dirty way of hitting your opponent. There is a reason it is sometimes referred to as Gangster Fist: it's not flashy and gets the job (kicking a$$) done quickly.

If you make any short cuts then that means you are cutting out aspects that were in the original design of a given style, meaning that you are not teaching THAT style anymore but b@stardized version.

Again, the *only* thing these styles were designed for is war and fighting. When you get into all the added appendages of styles, it's more about selling something the public thinks what martial arts is all about from watching popular culture, etc. It's also about 'filling a curriculum' and keeping their rice bowl filled (and to themselves).

And in my opinion describing a b@stardized form of fighting as Wing Chun is not a very honest way of teaching.

And teaching someone some 'internal' BS (I am a Registered Acupuncturist who believes in Qi/Shen) while they came to lean to fight is wasting someone's time.

Here's a good read on the whole subject with a nice 'dig' on how this whole Shaolin Temple link that everyone claims perhaps could have sprung from popular culture:

http://www.clubbchimera.com/?p=358

Here's the first quote in the article:
“Prior to the end of the Qing Dynasty, Chinese martial arts had one goal, pure and simple: winning confrontations through intimidation, the use of weapons, or the use of one’s fists…Chinese martial arts were considered to be a physical skill, a manual skill; they were not linked to any esoteric philosophy, nor were they viewed as a from of character development, religious practice, or spiritual development”.

- “Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey”, Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo

[Ali. R]

You may be one of the oldest members here and by the way that you post it’s very hard to tell the difference, or too come to that particular conclusion….

You just keep falling, falling and falling, and cant get up and you’re still rolling down hill in a ball of flames… I miss your point, remember it’s all about if I mix arts or not…

It’s seems to me that you cant do anything with a straight face but stay in the shadows of deception and falsehood, changing the subject to h0m0msexuallty and then typos… Why not address your statement below when asked to prove your charge

But, but .... you teach both WC and boxing. How can you do that with a straight face if you believe that statement? Come on.

You are a grown man acting like a child, with a racecar bed, superman sheets and a purple stuff-talking dinosaur placed in the corner, you must still stay at home…


Ali Rahim.

[Mr Punch]

FWIW, Yip Man is said to have said to breathe naturally. AFAIK, this was always a major difference between wing chun and many other kf styles. And I don't know of any mention he made of the dantien at all. Anyone supposedly speaking from a Yip Man lineage about dantien breathing care to back that up?

Funny thing is...in the Iron Palm practice of my lineage...

Hey Chris, so is this your Yip Man Wing Chun's lineage too? You're lucky, I don't think most of Yip Man's student's got any IP.

Who's your link to Yip again?

Also in our WC the feet follow the hands, the hands strike and release energy with the breath. So our breathing catalyzes our whole body's energy from the ground up. Ours is a Yip Man lineage.

So, back to my original question: do you have any quotes from Yip Man (kuen kuit etc, or just anecdotal stuff would do) through your Sigung, or failing that, even some from your Sigung, that back up this way of teaching as being from Yip Man or maybe his teachers?

William Cheung and Leung Ting are infamous for having stuff they made up and attributed to Yip (whether that's true or not I don't pretend to know) to name but two.

Sifu Ali was taught this same method.

Well, of course - he is your teacher, right? Sorry, don't get your point.

Well that is going to be en eye opener for some of the Yip Man lineage people here whose sifus did not bother to teach them the chi kung aspects of this art.

No, not really. Yip Man is famous for having taught loads of different people loads of different things. Doesn't mean he hated them all or didn't trust some of them or whatever, though doubtless there are some examples of preferential treatment. It's certainly not a question of what sifu's did or didn't bother to teach. On the contrary, in a world of unproven competition business like wing chun, I would suspect that if one sifu had an extra piece of the puzzle he'd be dying to show people to get more students in... may even make it up to do so...!

Shame you have to think of everything (er, well, your way) as the one true way and everything else as bad kung fu. There are many variations even within 'good kungfu'.

What I said about Yip Man saying keep the breathing natural comes from his two sons by the way.

One last point: if you think fighting while keeping your breathing natural is in some way the easy way out, it just shows you've never fought in your life or had any practice that even resembles it. It's a very difficult skill to breathe naturally during a fight.

Finally I came back from my vacations and I am preparing to leave London for warmer climates. Meanwhile I am trying to enlighten some of this forum's kickboxers to the intricacies of real kung fu and boy it ain't easy, because nothing seems to be going through to them.

Shame you didn't take me up on my offer to be enlightened when I was in London. I'm always up for an exchange in enlightenment...

[HardWork8]

"Real Kung-Fu" was never meant for fast results, hey? Where do you think all this Kung-Fu came from?

The last time I looked, it came from China or are you going to quote me a book that says that kung fu comes from North Dakota?

People wanting to fight to start and end conflict (Read: War).

Fair enough and of course that kung fu can trace its roots to primitive forms of fighting, but IT EVOLVED BEYOND THAT!

And that is what I am trying to make you lot understand!

So just like the armies of today - who need to learn things fast for conflict - Kung-Fu is no different.

And as I mentioned there were surely short cuts during times of war and conflict and also remember that just like the armies of today the armies of that period had more efficient ways of killing their adversary, namely weapons, albeit primitive ones.

The only thing Wing Chun training 'does' is reprogram the body's movements to augment your survival rate in combat.

So do all other kung fu styles, including the ones that are far superior to Wing Chun!

It teaches simple concepts like attacking the attack as a form of defense.

So do other kung fu styles and some do that same thing better than Wing Chun!

In its most basic inception - it is a quick and dirty way of hitting your opponent.

I don't know of any kung fu style that advocates fighting cleanly.

There is a reason it is sometimes referred to as Gangster Fist:

There are other styles of kung fu that have been practised by chinese gangsters/mafiosos most of which take longer to master than Wing Chun. Why do you think that these "functional" fighters chose the more complicated styles?

it's not flashy and gets the job (kicking a$$) done quickly.

No one says that Wing Chun or any other kung fu style was designed to "get the job done" slowly. However, if it is to be learnt properly, then it must be practised holistically, just like any other kung fu style.

Again, the *only* thing these styles were designed for is war and fighting. When you get into all the added appendages of styles, it's more about selling something the public thinks what martial arts is all about from watching popular culture, etc.

To be honest, followers of the popular culture aspects of martial arts do not last for too long in any of the traditional schools that I have trained in.

It's also about 'filling a curriculum' and keeping their rice bowl filled (and to themselves).

A lot of "rice bowl" filling goes on in the "modern", "functional" and "new and improved" MA scene as well. Are they all bad????

And teaching someone some 'internal' BS (I am a Registered Acupuncturist who believes in Qi/Shen)

Your description of what I assume to be all internal martial arts as BS is very offensive to REAL kung fu practitioners.

Also, "qualified" acupuncturist does not necessarilly mean qualified kung fu sifu of Traditional kung fu!

while they came to lean to fight is wasting someone's time.

Then open a kickboxing school with Kung fu influences. Sanjuro can take care of the Ontario branch, but I warn you he actually has done chi kung during his "Iron Palm" training and he even admitted(kind of apologetically) to it having helped him with the training.

See, you already will have arguments over the "internal BS" with Sanjuro, and he is a glorified kickboxer if there ever was one.

If you decide to open a branch in Australia you can ask Anerlich to take care of that branch. On the surface he may just look like your average Glorified Kickboxer "kung fu-ist" but did you know that he practises Russian Chi kung? Furthermore he has researched it too, aparrently more than he has researched Wing Chun.

Here's a good read on the whole subject with a nice 'dig' on how this whole Shaolin Temple link that everyone claims perhaps could have sprung from popular culture:

http://www.clubbchimera.com/?p=358

Thank you for the link. The material seems to be more hypophesis and opinion than fact. And as you stated the whole Shaolin story could have perhaps sprung from popular culture" or PERHAPS NOT!

Whatever the truth it is a well known fact that kung fu's history goes back a long way before that of Shaolin. In fact kung fu was practised in many temples and not just the Shaolin monestary.

Here's the first quote in the article:
“Prior to the end of the Qing Dynasty, Chinese martial arts had one goal, pure and simple: winning confrontations through intimidation, the use of weapons, or the use of one’s fists…Chinese martial arts were considered to be a physical skill, a manual skill; they were not linked to any esoteric philosophy, nor were they viewed as a from of character development, religious practice, or spiritual development”.

And that paragraph is flowed to start with. What makes the writer, or indeed you think that the internals solely refer to isoteric concepts? Because they don't! They may do on one level and if so what do you find objectionable about isoteric concepts?

Is it a case of "I don't understand it, therefore it is isoteric"? Did you know that the internals also refer to the training of tendons in a particular manner? Did you know that the different types of exhaling affect the way power is issued?

Did you know that the various chi kung exercises can help in the development of extreme relaxation which contribute in the development and issuing of internal power and of course the "listening" sensitivity? And finally, are you familiar with what it is that I am talking about?

[HardWork8]

No, not really. Yip Man is famous for having taught loads of different people loads of different things.

That is what some people say. Are you sure of that fact? I am asking this because from my experience the sifus who hold back will teach the majority of their students the SAME STUFF while they will teach the "deeper" aspects and secrets to a chosen few. I have never heard of a master teaching "loads of stuff to loads of people" and in my humble opinion I doubt that Yip Man did so either.

It's certainly not a question of what sifu's did or didn't bother to teach.

It certainly can be because it is a fact that a lot of sifus don't bother to teach what they don't know.

Others who know may be choosey (and quite rightly so) as to whom they teach the higher level aspects.

I have even heard of some who will teach the lesser known aspects and up to a point the more secret stuff for the right money.

On the contrary, in a world of unproven competition business like wing chun,

Hey what do I care about sports competitions. If Wing Chun and indeed other styles of kung fu are good enough for gangsters then they are good enough for me.

I would suspect that if one sifu had an extra piece of the puzzle he'd be dying to show people to get more students in...

Not when most of the internal training can be considered boring and irrelevant to "real fighting".

I suspect that some you lot would be out of the door (and confused) within 15 minutes of seeing some of the exercises that we practise at my current (none-wing chun) school.

may even make it up to do so...!

Well that they do for sure. Sometimes they call it confidential training that they received from their masters and other times and on the other side of the scale they refer to what they teach as "functional", "New and Improved", "Street Effective", "Modern",etc. Kung Fu.

Shame you have to think of everything (er, well, your way) as the one true way and everything else as bad kung fu.

Shame that you don't see exactly what I am trying to say here and that is (AGAIN) that the internals and other aspects such as the forms/IP etc, are part of kung fu and anyone claiming to practise or indeed teach any kung fu style should teach them holisticaly otherwise he is teaching a b@stardized art that he probably does not understand himself. That is all!

There are many variations even within 'good kungfu'.

Yet those variations are made by real masters (unless you mean some other art by saying "good kung fu") and not Glorified Kickboxers and they do stick to the principles and concepts of a given art. If they don't then these masters more often than not will change the name of their arts to reflect that. And that is what people teaching Wing Chun flavored kickboxing should do and that is change the name. CHANGE THE NAME!

What I said about Yip Man saying keep the breathing natural comes from his two sons by the way.

And what I said about the way to breath naturally through the dantien stands!

One last point: if you think fighting while keeping your breathing natural is in some way the easy way out, it just shows you've never fought in your life or had any practice that even resembles it. It's a very difficult skill to breathe naturally during a fight.

From day one of my Wing Chun training I was taught to breath naturally through the dan tien and that went for contact sparring as well. Of course, during striking exhalation is made through the dantien in various ways depending on the type strike and the level of the student. It is not easy but you have to learn it like everything else in kung fu.

The easy way out is breathing naturally like boxer.

Shame you didn't take me up on my offer to be enlightened when I was in London.

First of all as you rightly quoted I was on my vacations (you should read what you quote) secondly I am not into "intenet dating" not unless you are a lonely housewife looking for some fun. Thirdly and finally and it is nothing personal but I don't find "machismo" from your part of the world and indeed from here in the UK and most of Western Europe, intimidating.

It is easy to ACT tough and delinquent when if something goes wrong you have your "Human Rights", The police, lawyers and indeed the law itself that protects you.

99% of the indeginious tough guys/"gangsters" here in London wouldn't last 10 seconds in the wrong part of towns in countries like Colombia, Brasil or parts of Eastern and south Eastern Europe.

So go and challenge a "tough guy" from your own country or next time you are in London (and if the climate doesn't kill you first) then feel free to challenge one of the pub tough guys here, but I warn you they are fat and have some mean looking tatoos, however, some of them do wear nice earings.

I'm always up for an exchange in enlightenment...

Enlightenment would be good end for you but I warn you again that it involves a lot of Chi kung and meditation (preferably when you are NOT hitting the punchbag)

[unkokusai]

I was "assimilated" into Glorified Kickboxing during my teens, in the 1980's when I joined and trained in a school that claimed to be teaching "Chinese Boxing". However what they taught was nothing more than a glorified form of kickboxing(so beloved by the many "kung fu-ists" posting in this forum), and honestly speaking it was not a bad school at all, as far as kickboxing was concerned but it WAS NOT REAL KUNG FU!

Basement Boy is at it again!

[unkokusai]

If Wing Chun and indeed other styles of kung fu are good enough for gangsters then they are good enough for me.

Typically stupid statement.

[unkokusai]

I suspect that some you lot would be out of the door (and confused) within 15 minutes of seeing some of the exercises that we practise at my current (none-wing chun) school.

.....................