Wah Lum as a performance art???

[Papieboni]

Robin,

Please explain further.........."What we think is pretty or flashy is actually our human desire for destruction!"
Interesting concept.
Also I think you are right, I think all martial art is geared toward combat, some looks at it in a different approach and I am sure they are all useful in some way.

[Robinf]

Hi KickingMantis,

What I mean is, a lot of folks consider "flashy kicks" such as butterfly and hurricane kicks, and kicks to the head, as useless in real street situations--noone appears to have tried them, they just make the blanket statement. What I'm proposing is that these "flashy" techniques are in fact as useful on the street as any, but because we are so stunned by the beauty we think that those techniques can't possibly work. Kind of like underestimating the evil that could exist in a truly good-looking person.

Just a passing thought.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[Papieboni]

I am sure some of those kicks you just mentioned will work i know in fact they will and some others may work if you are fighting against a non-seasoned fighter. "I am usually a kicker and i love stepping to the side and using the RAAT MAY TUI or Cut Eye Brow Kick, only because I can use it with the opponent being able to undetect it.(Kwai May Tui)Inside crescents to the head I would never use unless i am VERY up close and inside to the opponent. Butterfly kicks? if u have mastered it try it see if it works for you.

i have used high kicks on people that really know how to fight or use really low stances to fight and have almost causght myself in a jam because they simply go low right underneath the kick and hands are usually faster than feet and it takes a person longer to retrct the kick than for a person to throw a punch.

This is why for combat I try to stick to the kicks that I know works for me or low kicks that are simple and flows right into other techniques easily, Chin Tui, Dong Tui, Fu May Tui, Chom Sum Tui and Raat May Tui and of course a simple back kick always work for me ( or the Spinning back) kick.

Personally, in combat, I just try to stay away from things that are long and leaves me open.

So, I am not using blanket statements, I know what works for me and for what I am trying to achieve and I have found that the more flashy and long the technique the more it usually leaves me open to get hit and swept more.

Of course these things will work on beginner and intermediate students, they will make you look like an expert, but, when you fight someone that knows how to fight personally, I think your going to find yourself in trouble, especially on the streets when you cant afford to make mistakes like you can in your school on sparring night.

I will repeat what I said again, Usually, how we fight in our kwoon or dojo is how we are going to react on the streets for the most part.

[This message was edited by KickingMantis on 10-23-00 at 01:18 PM.]

[typhoon_011]

I practice N. Shaolin and I've been in it for five years. My style is a northern style and that's why I'm here. I've heard excellent things about the Wah Lum school over the years. It has an outstanding reputation. I agree with some of the above comments about high kicks. High kicks are not often useful in a fight. But let me say some words about how and when they could be used. In my view the only time they could be used is from outside gate. If you are at inside gate you should not try them. An opponent will just punch you repeatedly. The other problem is the opponent rushes forward as you kick. This is called jamming. It's a basic and effective tactic. Your kick impacts the opponent but their is no power because he is closer to you now than when you launched the kick. Jamming also works against punches. But it's easier to keep attacking with punches than with kicks for obvious reasons. Your balance is compromised with kicks and you can end up on the ground if the guy crashes into you.

High kicks are one thing, and jumping kicks are another. High kicks make sense as a training tool as they make low kicks more powerful. Jumping kicks could be used in combat where high kicks would fail. Jumping kicks combined with bridging motions(arm controlling) could take someone out, but again only from outside gate. I would say that a jump kick should be combined with a bridging motion every time. If you're at outside gate that prevents a lot of counterattacks from the other guy.

Real fights happen in close. That's why it's easier to jump kick high or kick low than to kick at waist level(groin included). Try it. If you are up close to an opponent the jump kick allows a high kick and it's an evasive move at the same time. As long as you include something to grab/check an arm with as you go up. I repeat that I would only do this from outside gate. And the way to get to outside get is to engage the opponent while stepping. You can't just try to walk around the guy. You'll never succeed without having arm contact first. If you get that then you slip outside and employ a jump kick. I wouldn't try this too often but I think it could work.

I'm not an experienced fighter(street) but I've been there. I will admit that I've never tried a jump kick in a real fight. I'm just reasoning with you as to how it could work. I think one problem is that people who can jump kick often don't realize the importance of controlling the opponents arms. They act like kickboxers and they get stomped when the other guy just rushes them. I also agree that all fighting is in-fighting, but that doesn't exlude the possibility of a jump kick. In fact it makes bridging motions more important. There are too many people in northern styles who think that they way to move around is to just use footwork. No way. You have to go at him, tie up arms, and then step to outside gate while remaing close. You have to keep contact with someone(arm to arm) if you want to anticipate and stop what they're trying to do.

Touranments are the other problem. People become convinced of myths about different ranges. You can't stand back in a real fight because there is nothing to prevent the guy from rushing you. So you have to adapt any technique(including jump kicks) to in-fighting. That's why forms are so important! They contain these arm checking movements and bridging techniques that allow you to get to outside gate. If you don't see that then you won't get the point of northern styles. Northern styles fight at the same range everyone else does: street fighting/in-fighting range. they just approach combat differently.
A lot of knife hand and palm strikes(as well as sweeps and kicks) work nicely in outside gate. But first you have to be able to get there. And you have to understand that you'll still be fighting in close no matter what style you do. Don't confuse sport with street.

[typhoon_011]

When I talk about inside and outside gate above I am talking about whether you are in front of the guy (between his arms) or to the side/back of him(outside his arms). If you fight in close it's not that hard to get to the side of someone. If you try to hang back you will never do it because the distance is greater. Think of a circle. A smaller circle has a smaller circumference. That's why you want to be in close. Because you can move all over the place(change angles) with just a step.

Let's talk about spinning punches and kicks. Everyone says they are a waste of time. They say things like 'don't turn your back on an opponent". But they are still thinking in terms of sport fighting where you are far away from the guy. If you are in close you can step off line and spin very quickly. Because you're hardly moving. Combining this with checking/bridging(I could say blocking)motions does a lot to stop the guy from taking advantage of the situation.

Northern styles use big movements in their forms. But in a real fight you are in close. Northern styles just approach the universal fighting range(in close) differently. But people who see tournaments and the like mistakenly believe that it's possible to fight at greater than arms length. They won't make the transition from sport to reality because they confuse the two. You have to start from the assumption that you are always in elbow to elbow contact with the guy you are fighting. No matter what you're style.

[Papieboni]

I dont think i would ever advocate to a student to always assume you are in close range. There have been moments that I have wished that I was not in close range and chose alternate methods of attacks. This depends on the opponent in most to all cases. You can't make a standard assuption. I always keep in mind the size, strength, length of limbs, speed, timing,and the method of attack the opponent uses. Its not as simple in my opinion as inside and outside gate, although those are important.

For example, If I am fighting someone that has shorter limbs than I, and stronger and they are a better puncher, I dont want to be in the inside gate all that much. I will want to use my reach to my advantage and speed by going in and out. However, If the opponent is a kicker, has longer legs, longer limbs and are weaker then I may want to spend longer periods of time trying to infight because they feel comfortable kicking, if I am close their kicks are not as effective and their punches are not as strong.

[Dreamer]

Spinning kicks and punches can be very useful. But you can't use it from a distance and when your opponent is ready for it. The time to use a spin is when you have the time. For example if you have just done a powerful punch or kick to the torso the opponent will be in a dizzy state for a short while. If you execute the spinning attack immediately and avoid high jumps so that you can stop the attack when you want you can be very successful in using spinning.

"The power lies not in what you do, but how you do it"

<font color = "#000033"> [b]D[b]reamer</font>

[fuhok-kid]

tyhpoon_001, as a trained kicker, I like your thinking. I used to do taekwondo and got a lot of high kicks, jumping and spinning kicks. I think to use them on the steet, one must not only know how to use them, but be trained in their use in a defensive posture. I once met a taekwondo master at a seminar and in showing me a few self defence moves,both empty-hand and against weapons, he always threw spin kicks and high kicks. He was so fast, I never saw the kicks coming until it was too late to try and avoid them and I was knocked off my feet. I also took the other korean arts of hapkido and Han-pul and got a few lesson in using high kicks at close range(where most people aren't expecting them as they demand good flexibility). Especially when combined with a series of joint-locks. From my tournament experience, I learnt that to deliver a good high kick, speed must be your best friend. Also I'd rather use them after throwing a hand technique, or low kick to hide your high kick. Again, speed is your best friend. How does that translate on the street, well for starters, the average joe isn't a trained fighter so there is a good chance a good kicker can have good results with high kicks. Secondly, I like to think of an attacker as a trained fighter and treat them accordingly and would advocate using them as a follow on technique when the attacker would least expect. On the subject of this thread, I am currently training in wah lum and while it does have flashy forms, I see a lot of applications in them... if you take the time to break them down and practise them. I used to take traditional eagle claw and again, beautful , eye pleasing forms but very effective techniques in the forms.. again with practise can be used for self defence. Case in point, the wah lum flute form. Very beautiful and flowing. But dissect it and one can see applicable techniques for using a short stick or rolled up newpaper. It is my understanding that the reasons alot of TMA forms appear to be filled with apparently useless movements,is to hide the true techniques. Anyone who take a look at ancient china will see it filled with secret societies and family styles that were ment to be kept within a family. In that sense, it make sense to hide ones techniques so a public demo will not give away anything but a series of good looking movements that are useless in a fight. In ending my little rant here, I'd say every art is as good as the individual. If someone isn't a good kicker,has never attempted to work on them for self defence applications, doesn't have the speed and power such kicks demand for maximum damage and effectiveness and tries to throw high kicks on the street, they are in for a nasty surprise. If someone trains in kungfu and doesn't spend the time to see how to use or alter the techniques in the forms for self-defence, again they will be in for a shocker on the street.

[phoenixdog]

I saw a kuk sool won instructor spin kick a dude across the street in a fight outside a bar in new orleans.They carted the dude away in an ambulance.Thought he was dead.

[fuhok-kid]

I think that guy was just knocked unconconcious. It goes back to what I said in my last post. Joe schmoe on the street is not as trained or in fighting shape as an MA who regularly engages in sparring and a good placed high kick from an accomplished kicker, will take them out of the fight. I've been caught with a spinning heel kick to my jaw during a sparring session back in TKD days. It almost knocked me out and definitely rung my bells. It was bare hands and feet sparring with no protective gear to soften the hit so I know how it feels to catch a spin kick you don't see coming till it was too late.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It comes down to this.. what is any system's record of producing winning fighters..

Wah Lum, as a very large system with many schools, should be presenting respected fighters at most tournaments.. In my experience with the system, Troy P. was the last truly respected fighter representing Wah Lum, and the majority of his fighting skills were developed outside the system..

If a system is called a "Martial Art", it needs to represent itself as such.. Under the direction of GM Chan Pui Wah Lum was capable of producing the best of the best (if you were determined to be worthy of the teachings).. but, its "under new management", now.. and, time will tell whether it survives in its former glory..

Any system can live on good marketing for only so long.. at some point though, evidence is required to back-up the marketing, the tales and stories.. its not about what the system was.. its about what it is today..

Anyone who knows me knows how much i truly respect GM Chan Pui, he earned his respect long before i got into the system.. now, it's time for the "new management" to earn its respect..

Be well..

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

about fighting arts and performance arts. Any CMA can be a fighting art OR performance art. It isn't the art itself but how you play it and how you train it.

For the Wah Lum peeps out there, shorten your moves, raise stances and apps will make more sense. For others, lengthen your moves, lower your stances and go overboard with all your techniques and it will look fancy like WL.

That's about it, plus change angles and turns with no regard for fighting sense when creating forms for show.

There's nothing inherent about Wah Lum that makes it flashy or performance orientated. It looks that way because of how it's played and how it's trained.

When you see a WL performance they're really pushing the flash. I've seen forms put together with nothing but all the flashiest moves (they all have one or two) from all the forms together in one.

Before you bash the flashy moves though realize that they are the same as in other recognized, legitimate styles. WL isn't the only one with high kicks.

As I told a student of a competing NPM school at a local tourney a few years back when she complained that, once again, her school wasn't winning. I told her to lower her stances and elaborate all the moves. She didn't want to do that and preferred to stay true to her style.

I agree with her but if wwinning is important that's what you have to do. When I judge I score low when I see a bunch of flash and butt-dragging stances. It's up to the Sifus and judges to get this 'flash wins' under control.

[Judge Pen]

It's not WL, but. . . .

As my teacher tells it, the really low stances and high kicks aren't indicative of the actual application. They are as much for training as anything. The actual effective application may be higher, but if you can train the move at an ankle high stance, then you are building greater strength, flexibility, and range of motion. Same with high kicks: The don't always work, but if you can throw it high, then its faster when you throw it lower. As such, the forms show these techniques at their maximum, not necessarily at their application effective motion.

It has the side effect of being pretty.

[Ou Ji]

Good point JP but there are 2 schools of thought here.

One believes in overdoing things for practice while the other says you fight like you train so do everything exactly how you would use it.

I see values in both so I'm a bit undecided. I think I lean towards overdoing things. If you're going to fight 2 min rounds practice doing 3+ min rounds.

So for groin kicks should you practice them in your form at groin level or kick 2 feet higher?

In the case of the higher kick a groin shot might not be apparent when watching. That might lead some to believe the player doesn't know what he's doing.

While that could be true it's not a given.

If you practice kicking higher does that mean it won't work?

[Judge Pen]

So for groin kicks should you practice them in your form at groin level or kick 2 feet higher?

In the case of the higher kick a groin shot might not be apparent when watching. That might lead some to believe the player doesn't know what he's doing.

While that could be true it's not a given.

If you practice kicking higher does that mean it won't work?

As for kicks, there are certain times my teacher will tell me this kick is lower because its intended to attack the knee or it is a downward cutting kick etc. but there are times where the kick is intended to go through the groin and the form looks to be a over-the-head straight leg kick. So the "kicking higher to kick all ranges better" idea is not absolute, but its a rule of thumb at my school.