The state of Chinese martial arts

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Today many Chinese martial arts teachers only teach forms to their students, but not a single application of those forms to their students. They then tell their students that they can fight with those forms. I thought Chinese martial arts are for fighting, health and not dancing. I do not know any dance teachers who would told their students that they could fight by using the dance routines they have just learnt. However, I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers would tell their students they can fight with the forms they have just learnt.
Do you think any professional dancers can fight with their dance routines?

No is the answer. If professional dancers could not fight with their dance routines (forms) what make you think that you and your students can fight with the forms, without knowing how to apply them in the first place!


This is not an insult!



This is a fact that many Chinese martial arts teachers teach only forms to their students. When I was studying Hung kuen years ago (as well as wing chun), I too was too told that we could fight using our forms, without learning a single application about how the form work. After one year all the students sparred like 5 years old children in front of our Hung Kuen teacher and si gung. All the techniques went out of the window. They did not said anything except that to encourage us to practise more. I left the class after this experience.
I am not ashamed to admit that I too could not use any of our kung fu techniques in nearly all my sparring matches. I have fought like a five years old child, human punching bag and badly trained amateur boxer and kick boxer, despite the fact that I have spent several thousand hours in my kung fu training. I also had seen people who performed worse than me, because I beat them in our sparring matches. However, I would not call this kung fu, because I could not apply what I had learnt in my sparring matches.

My question is why are there so many Chinese martial arts teachers unwilling to teach the application of the forms to their students?



Thank you

[sanjuro_ronin]

One can fall back on the view that you mat have had bad teachers or the view that your teachers wanted you to learn how to apply the forms yourself.
We can also remember that forms are NOT dancing.
Fact is, while forms serve a purpose, unless they are taught in a practical way they can't be used for fighting unless you are a highly skilled and gift fighter from the very beginning.
Some people can just make anything work.

However, the easiest and best way to learn how to fight is, by fighting in some for or another.
Many of the typical applications of forms don't work at all, simply because more often than not, they are not drilled correctly.
Many teachers teach horrific applications.

[Water Dragon]

About time we had an original topic around here.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Dear all,
Today many Chinese martial arts teachers only teach forms to their students, but not a single application of those forms to their students. They then tell their students that they can fight with those forms. I thought Chinese martial arts are for fighting, health and not dancing. I do not know any dance teachers who would told their students that they could fight by using the dance routines they have just learnt. However, I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers would tell their students they can fight with the forms they have just learnt.
Do you think any professional dancers can fight with their dance routines?

No is the answer. If professional dancers could not fight with their dance routines (forms) what make you think that you and your students can fight with the forms, without knowing how to apply them in the first place!


This is not an insult!



This is a fact that many Chinese martial arts teachers teach only forms to their students. When I was studying Hung kuen years ago (as well as wing chun), I too was too told that we could fight using our forms, without learning a single application about how the form work. After one year all the students sparred like 5 years old children in front of our Hung Kuen teacher and si gung. All the techniques went out of the window. They did not said anything except that to encourage us to practise more. I left the class after this experience.
I am not ashamed to admit that I too could not use any of our kung fu techniques in nearly all my sparring matches. I have fought like a five years old child, human punching bag and badly trained amateur boxer and kick boxer, despite the fact that I have spent several thousand hours in my kung fu training. I also had seen people who performed worse than me, because I beat them in our sparring matches. However, I would not call this kung fu, because I could not apply what I had learnt in my sparring matches.

My question is why are there so many Chinese martial arts teachers unwilling to teach the application of the forms to their students?



Thank you

Reply]
I think you are living in 1997, or whenever it is you posted this EXACT SAME POST, Word for word.

Since then, MMA has really revived an interest in fighting skill through out all styles, including Kung Fu. San Shou is growing, and all sorts of other fighting venues are growing as well.

Because of this, Kung Fu schools are spending more time teaching the fighting of thier styles and slowly reverting back to the Old school ways of function first, flash is an after thought.

Now, what I think is a much more important question, is how is it I can remember some post, written word for word form like 10 years ago, but I can't remember something I have to remember from yesterday?

Also, why is it I never remember to spell remember with the second "M"? Must Spell check allways belittle me with that??

[xcakid]

Forms are for conditioning, coordination, and balance. Unfortunately they have not been updated to deal in todays society. 50% of the forms out there still has defenses against staff, spear, swords and such. They are also good for keeping up tradition. Having said that, there still applications in forms that can be usefull in todays situations. So they can not and should not be discounted altogether. Dao forms can also be easily adapted to a baseball bat. Staff forms can still be used as is. Many open hand forms uses Chin Na applications in a more dynamic and practical application.

I have said this before on this forum and will continue to say it. Chinese martial arts stopped evolving with the times. CMA use to be in the forefront of fighting and weapons development. It got left behind.

I halfway kid when people ask me if I would use CMA in a real fight. My response is: "CMA is for training, conditioning and fun. A gun is what I use for self defense. "

My true vision of MMA = CMA, Arnis, and Tactical Shooting both CQB and Long range.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Forms are for recording the system, and training mechanics to an advanced level more than anything else. all the other attributes are side effects.

[mawali]

Dear all,
Today many Chinese martial arts teachers only teach forms to their students, but not a single application of those forms to their students. They then tell their students that they can fight with those forms. I thought Chinese martial arts are for fighting, health and not dancing. I do not know any dance teachers who would told their students that they could fight by using the dance routines they have just learnt. However, I do know that many Chinese martial arts teachers would tell their students they can fight with the forms they have just learnt.
Do you think any professional dancers can fight with their dance routines?

No is the answer. If professional dancers could not fight with their dance routines (forms) what make you think that you and your students can fight with the forms, without knowing how to apply them in the first place!

This is not an insult!

This is a fact that many Chinese martial arts teachers teach only forms to their students. When I was studying Hung kuen years ago (as well as wing chun), I too was too told that we could fight using our forms, without learning a single application about how the form work. After one year all the students sparred like 5 years old children in front of our Hung Kuen teacher and si gung. All the techniques went out of the window. They did not said anything except that to encourage us to practise more. I left the class after this experience.
I am not ashamed to admit that I too could not use any of our kung fu techniques in nearly all my sparring matches. I have fought like a five years old child, human punching bag and badly trained amateur boxer and kick boxer, despite the fact that I have spent several thousand hours in my kung fu training. I also had seen people who performed worse than me, because I beat them in our sparring matches. However, I would not call this kung fu, because I could not apply what I had learnt in my sparring matches.

My question is why are there so many Chinese martial arts teachers unwilling to teach the application of the forms to their students?

Thank you

The "modern" do not have a clue so they fall for anything becasue it was said by the teacher and they are led like sheep to open their pocketbook and they like it.

I wish I had that kind of persuasion on my students but it is not nice so I refuse to do it. So much for wude! As I said previously, wude of the past is dead and has been for awhile and I say the few excellent teachers are just that. They tell the truth and they are villified! Dig that!

Let's not forget that this is USA. Economics rule in kungfu and wall street fu!

[mkriii]

Dear all,

My question is why are there so many Chinese martial arts teachers unwilling to teach the application of the forms to their students?

Thank you

Maybe its because they don't know the application themselves or maybe its to make the student think a little harder and let him figure it out on his own. My teacher taught the applications to almost all the techniques in the form but he would let us try and determine what some of the techniques were for on our own.

[SimonM]

More likely the teacher doesn't know either.

It's the blind leading the blind.

[MightyB]

Forms can also help to show you the intent of a move or how it's applied. It doesn't mean that the form is the only way to apply the move... at least in Mantis- you go back a couple of movements in the form to understand the set up of a move you want to know more about. For example... you could be stuck on how to apply a knuckle strike to the temple. Find a spot in a form where that move is used. Go back two or three moves and you might see- 1 ou lou choi, 2 tu sau, 3 knuckle strike to the temple. From that you could see how that particular master applied that move. Look at it in the abstract- he set up with a fairly direct attack- the guy must have countered with a side moving block, the master then followed that energy (circle) with the tu sau linked to the hin choi (knuckles to the temple)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, you can get quite a bit of "Insite" to applications by looking at the form as well.

You still need to do all the two man work to develop the skills to use it though

[golden arhat]

i know that forms arent applicable by themselves

but i know that if i happened to learn a jab cross by doing a form i'd probably be able to do it on someone

[iron_leg_dave]

Forms are really useful. Not only do they reveal the styles tactics and techniques, but they are designed in a way to teach you a flavour of rythm and timing, improve your whole body coordination and some postures will let you know how you are doing physically, and what it is you need to work on as far as conditioning your body.

They should retain the essense of the system, like a book for further study, but shouldn't be viewed as the actual system, which is what I think most schools are doing these days: Work out, to do forms better.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms are really useful. Not only do they reveal the styles tactics and techniques, but they are designed in a way to teach you a flavour of rythm and timing, improve your whole body coordination and some postures will let you know how you are doing physically, and what it is you need to work on as far as conditioning your body.

Teach you rythm and timing to do what ?

[iron_leg_dave]

Move your body through space.