Of relevance to Wing Chun

[HardWork8]

Look up Shinjo Sensei from the Uechi-ryu and see what he can do with his fingers.

The same probably holds true for Morio Higaonna of Goju ryu who has been conditioning his hands for decades.

[By the way, and this is going back a bit and is off topic, but has to be stated for the sake of enlightenment - Higaonnas Goju-ryu DOES address the ground scenario, just like Kyokushinkai did many years ago!]

[Liddel]

I believe that it does. Perhaps some sifus who teach it, do not give these aspects any emphasis, for whatever reason.

You cant have a belief on MY Ving Tsun... cause you havent seen me
So its actually fact that it has no relevance....TO ME

I have snake techs (or rather techs that are said to be from the snake) and they are emphasised but like i said the method is different to that shown, no more no less.
Its fine because i haver my own ideas towards VT many of which dont fit with a lot of other views on VT..... as one example -

The Snake element in most Wing Chun will refer to the various finger strikes to vulnerable areas and to the internal/softness training necessary to make those strikes work.

IMO BJ is not about finger strikes. I know many hold to this idea and thats fine.
For me its more about the crossover mechanics of what the fingers strikes make you do. Its about developing a different power and its applications outside the theory of the other 2 forms, IMHO people who reach BJ focus too much on the finger strikes like they are the death touch or something, when Finger strikes are in the other forms already...but thats another thread. LOL

The softness is also relevant in the "listening" ability that is present in all high level kung fu.

High level Kung fu is all but dead IMO but ok. LOL

I don't think that anyone will hit you back once you have taken out their eyeball...If they do, then you better run fast...

Who are you Pai Mei ? this is not the world of Kill Bill... you will never pluck my eyeball without it being blind luck. Poke gouge sure.

Ive had a finger in the eye up to the first knuckle on the index finger, it was an accident by my sparring partner but i was still standing although my eye was watering like a faucet....

Like anthing i wouldnt want to rely on one tech, but its obvious gouges and fingers have thier place.

Its amazing to me what people can do in pain and thats from first hand expereince of going on ride alongs with police friends...

DREW

[HardWork8]

You cant have a belief on MY Ving Tsun... cause you havent seen me
So its actually fact that it has no relevance....TO ME

Fair enough.

I have snake techs (or rather techs that are said to be from the snake) and they are emphasised but like i said the method is different to that shown, no more no less.

Fair enough.

Its fine because i haver my own ideas towards VT many of which dont fit with a lot of other views on VT

As long as they fit the Wing Chun principles then I don't think that there is anything wrong with different ideas and individual approaches.

IMO BJ is not about finger strikes. I know many hold to this idea and thats fine.

Before we go any further let me say that I am not at Biu Jee level,yet. What I know about Biu Jee is based on my Sifu's explanations.

Bj is about finger strikes and a whole lot of other things as well.

For me its more about the crossover mechanics of what the fingers strikes make you do. Its about developing a different power and its applications outside the theory of the other 2 forms, IMHO people who reach BJ focus too much on the finger strikes like they are the death touch or something, when Finger strikes are in the other forms already...but thats another thread. LOL

Interesting point and valid points, but again and as far as my lineage is concerned there are two versions of Biu Jee so I will have to hold judgement until or if I am taught the second version.

High level Kung fu is all but dead IMO but ok. LOL

I know for a fact that high level kung fu is alive and (not so) well, nowadays.

Who are you Pai Mei ? this is not the world of Kill Bill... you will never pluck my eyeball without it being blind luck. Poke gouge sure.

People see such techniques as singular actions. If thug is coming at me 30 miles an hour with all guns blazing then plucking his eye would be very difficult, but then if he walks into my fists first then I suppose plucking his eye would not be so challenging, if I were that way inclined that is.

Ive had a finger in the eye up to the first knuckle on the index finger, it was an accident by my sparring partner but i was still standing although my eye was watering like a faucet....

But I am sure that for the most part, it knocked the fight out of you.

Like anthing i wouldnt want to rely on one tech, but its obvious gouges and fingers have thier place.

They do, and that is why they exist in kung fu.

Its amazing to me what people can do in pain and thats from first hand expereince of going on ride alongs with police friends...

Agreed!

But again, if we use that logic then we will never hit anyone in self defense because they may withstand the pain and make minced meat out of us.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A guy I know who is highly skilled in WC and other MA's, and has extensive ring, security, and streetfighting experience, and is fairly amoral as regards hurting people, doesn't use "finger strikes" per se, but uses the thumb in the eye, from the inside corner outward to good effect.

It's not a stopper against a fully committed opponent, but he claims it works in situations to stop one guy temporarily while he's dealing with another, or to indicate to someone looking for a fist fight that he's biting off more than he wanted to chew.



I've seen demos of Karate guys that can split apples in mid-air and break boards with their fingers. Impressive. It must take loads of conditioning. But then again, I'd bet these guys can punch like battering rams as well.



Probably more so in the US. He's been around for decades, one of his books was my first MA-related book purchase in 1977. He has a number of students or associates that you often see in bit parts in Hollywood movies or on TV, Like James Liu (?) who was in Perfect Weapon, and Al Leong, the Asian guy with long hair from Lethal weapon.

He's always been a bit on the pudgy side for a supposedly top class martial artist IMO, but his books were OK.

The thumb gouge you describe is quite common as a grappling counter in a few MA, Goju and Kyokushin for example ( since I trained in them) have them in their self-defence curriculm and, of course, Steven Seagal does a fine example of the two handed ( or should I say two thumbed) one in Marked for death

It works really well of a "raking palm strike" and, while not a fight ender as part of a strike, it can be quite the fight ender as part of a "ripping" technique on an immobilized head.

[Toby]

Bj is about finger strikes and a whole lot of other things as well.

I know a couple of versions of biu jee and neither has anything to do with finger strikes. In fact in all the WC forms I know the strikes and moves are kind of unimportant if you're thinking in terms of application. Finger strikes in biu jee? Meh. Much more important things going on than that.

[HardWork8]

I know a couple of versions of biu jee and neither has anything to do with finger strikes. In fact in all the WC forms I know the strikes and moves are kind of unimportant if you're thinking in terms of application. Finger strikes in biu jee? Meh. Much more important things going on than that.

I can only talk about what I know of my lineage and I will also say that if your Wing Chun does not have IP training then learning finger strikes (Snake and the Crane) would be irrelevant.

It is also possible that a lot of the "quick fix" schools of Wing Chun that are prevalent nowadays will not teach you techniques that are time consuming, specially if the sifus that are teaching, have no knowledge of their existance, just like many instructors who have no knowledge of IP and the internals that are part and parcel of Wing Chun.

[Toby]

At my school the main teacher's been learning MA for about 50 years and WC for at least 30, maybe 40. At various times up to 3 systems of WC have been taught and I think he's learned 5, some in more detail than others. We've got students who've been at the school for about 20 years and earned "sifu" status, although they still consider themselves students. So if it's a "quick fix" school they're all obviously slow learners.

With respect to IP, we don't train IP, no (although my teacher has). I don't think any private students learn it either at this stage. But we do tend to emphasize a particular strike, and it must be conditioned to be effective and it takes a long time and lots of effort so there are some parallels to IP. It's regarded as higher percentage than finger techniques.

With respect to "internal training", there might be some in WC but IMHO it's not something that is discussed in any system that I've seen, at least not in any online videos. Furthermore, in most IMA systems I've seen there isn't any "internal training".

But anyway, you're missing my point. Irrespective of what strikes are/aren't in WC forms, the strikes themselves aren't the most important part. In fact, the important part might demonstrate part of what you're calling "internal training" although I doubt you know what I'm talking about since like I said you missed my point and you're focussing on the hands.

E.g. to emphasize my point - think of a strike like a straight jab. Does it really matter what's on the end of your arm? Could it be a flat palm, a bagua palm, a sun fist, a horizontal fist, a leopard fist, a phoenix eye fist, a horizontal finger strike, a vertical finger strike, etc, etc? It's irrelevant. It's what's driving the strike that's important. What drives your strikes? How is that trained in your forms?

[t_niehoff]

I suspect that you wouldn't want one of these "poorly skilled" fighters coming at you in a bar.

Any sane person doesn't "want" to be assaulted.

"Poorly skilled" guys have been gouging each other's eyes and biting noses for centuries. What makes you think that a fighter trained in kung fu cannot do the same?

Poorly skilled people getting away with stuff against other poorly skilled people isn't a good barometer of how we should proceed to develop skill in fighting.

Talking of experience, how many Snake stylists have you defeated in real fights, recently? Actually, how many ANY stylists of kung fu have you defeated, recently?

I am asking a logical question, here!

No, you're not. The question you should be asking if you are interested in these "Snake tactics" is not what I've done but what evidence exists that "Snake stylists" have ever been able to use these things successfully and consistently in fighting against decent-level competition. And the answer to that question is none. And that is a partial answerto your next point.

Actually it is you who BELIEVE BASED ON SPECULATION THAT IT WOULDN'T WORK!

No, my conclusion is based on evidence (see above). Also, instead of listening to the opinions of nonfighting "kung fu men" tell you what things will or will not work in fighting, why not talk to proven high-level fighters and fight trainers about the sorts of things that will work?

OR do you want me to send an email to Douglas Wong asking him to gouge somebody's eye for real on YouTube? LOL,LOL,LOL! But then some people would say that the, now blind man, was being compliant....LOL,LOL,LOL!

As I always say, a good laugh never hurts.

Wong's never fought and will never fight.

People can either base their views and opinions on theory and conjecture or on experience/evidence. In an earlier post I gave a simple way for a person to see for themselves whether this stuff is useful or not -- through experience. Similarly if someone thinks this stuff works on the ground, all they need to do is roll with some good grapplers and try to bite or poke and you'll see. That's my point: these sorts of things never come from people with actual experience, from someone who says "I routinely pull this stuff off in rolling against purple belts in BJJ", but from people with no experience but theoretical beliefs of what should work based on stories. The fact we don't hear it from anyone with experience is revealing.

[LoneTiger108]

I am glad ..It looks like it so far, but then I wouldn't be suprised if the Snake manifests itself in one of the Yip Man lineages as well, because I really believe that all Wing Chun has these elements. Maybe a Yip Man practitioner can pleasantly surprise us in this thread.

Strictly speaking, I'm of Ip Man heritage via Lee Shing. SO I'd have to confirm that Snake concepts are used in what I have been taught, along with the Crane. Also, Snake characteristics should NEVER be boxed into the idea that it's all about finger strikes etc. NEVER. Just as The Crane doesn't JUST fly?!

Similarly if someone thinks this stuff works on the ground, all they need to do is roll with some good grapplers and try to bite or poke and you'll see. That's my point: these sorts of things never come from people with actual experience...

I agree on the most part with what you're saying here T, and although you may not like it this point helps me explain my previous ramble.

Snake 'characteristics' ARE present throughout BJJ imo. Its not the finger striking, but it is definitely present in the 'gripping', rolling and submission tactics. After all, that's all a Snake will do. Bite you, poison you, wrap around you and squeeze you to death. All this before it eats you!

Sounds like decent BJJ to me...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Strictly speaking, I'm of Ip Man heritage via Lee Shing. SO I'd have to confirm that Snake concepts are used in what I have been taught, along with the Crane. Also, Snake characteristics should NEVER be boxed into the idea that it's all about finger strikes etc. NEVER. Just as The Crane doesn't JUST fly?!



I agree on the most part with what you're saying here T, and although you may not like it this point helps me explain my previous ramble.

Snake 'characteristics' ARE present throughout BJJ imo. Its not the finger striking, but it is definitely present in the 'gripping', rolling and submission tactics. After all, that's all a Snake will do. Bite you, poison you, wrap around you and squeeze you to death. All this before it eats you!

Sounds like decent BJJ to me...

Adding animal names to what we do is a cultural thing, even BJJ is guilty of it with their "anaconda choke: and their "mata leao" ( Lion killer).
Its all good.

[couch]

Adding animal names to what we do is a cultural thing, even BJJ is guilty of it with their "anaconda choke: and their "mata leao" ( Lion killer).
Its all good.

Then there's my hero - Eddie Bravo and his names like:
New York
Chill Dog
Kung-Fu Move
etc...


These are names so they can remember positions as well as for calling things out from the sidelines in competition your opponent isn't aware of. Very true re: cultural influences in MA. The ancient Chinese studied the moon, sun and stars...nature...weather patterns and seasonal changes. It's no wonder that Tai Chi (based on the Tao) has "natural" names for movements.

[LoneTiger108]

Adding animal names to what we do is a cultural thing, even BJJ is guilty of it with their "anaconda choke: and their "mata leao" ( Lion killer).
Its all good.

Part of what I'm saying here, but I'm not just referring to 'names' of techniques (used secretively or not!)

I'm on about the fundamental characteristics of the early systems. From what I see and who I've spoken to BJJ IS a 'Snake Style'. Why wouldn't any of the combos or trainig ideas be IN Wing Chun if we're snake based also?

The simple answer is, they are! Just need to look harder and study more imo

[sanjuro_ronin]

Then there's my hero - Eddie Bravo and his names like:
New York
Chill Dog
Kung-Fu Move
etc...

Dirty Sanchez
rusty trambone
angry pirate...

[couch]

I'm on about the fundamental characteristics of the early systems. From what I see and who I've spoken to BJJ IS a 'Snake Style'.

Yes and no, I guess. Thing it, BJJ is a Judo/JJJ derivative that took the Ne Waza/Ground Fighting and expanded on it. We can draw parallels in any MA to Snake this or Crane that. The main concern is always does it work - pressure tested.

Stop being such a Dirty Sanchez, LoneTiger! JK Had to use that phrase...LOL

[anerlich]

From what I see and who I've spoken to BJJ IS a 'Snake Style'.

I agree with Couch. Analogies will only get you so far.

I use python analogies a lot when teaching choke entries - firm but flexible, strong but not tense, constricting, etc.

But BJJ is IMO a different, er, animal from Snake style KF.

You could say BJJ is like a python, Snake KF more like a rattlesnake or cobra. But ultimately analogies will only get you so far.

To assume that one is a type of the other or vice versa, or that knowledge of one implies some understanding of the other, is IMO doing a disservice to both.