Of relevance to Wing Chun

[Toby]

Then I am afraid that you have totally misunderstood the internal approach to kung fu.

You can never and I mean NEVER get anywhere in the mastery of the internals without understanding the SCOPE and the DEPTH of relaxation involved. It is a complicated theory and it is not widely taught beyond a superficial level and hence all the misunderstandings.

I'm aware of what most people think. It doesn't make sense to me at all, nor to my teacher, nor his. Not that I care, but AFAIK I'm in a very traceable and reputable line of IMA so this isn't something I've made up. I will say this - apparently eventually I should expect to reach a level where I might look "soft" to an observer and feel "soft" and "relaxed" myself, but I should actually feel like an immoveable object to an opponent (i.e. the "needle wrapped in cotton" analogy). However I should expect ~10 years of pain and hard work first, by training very "not relaxed".

I don't understand how people advocate total relaxation will make you faster, harder, stronger. Not possible IMHO. Unless you train those attributes in another way.

Then feel free to contact the sifu or master in the video with your criticisms and "teachings"!

Why? I couldn't care less.

However, when you do have the required power in your strikes then you need to think about the TECHNIQUES and their possible variations. And areas like the Snake, Tiger, Leopard will widen that scope, but NOT without the complimentary Iron Palm practice!

So you've got the required power? I don't. I won't ever be satisfied with my level of power. That's what I prefer to develop over my hand shape.

[Toby]

Some interesting things said in this thread, lots I agree with.

There are as many different definitions of "internal" as there are people claiming to know something along these lines.

Yeah, the main ones I've heard are "internal" to China, i.e. Taoist roots. One I can't remember offhand, and this one:

Some see it as nothing omre than correct alignment and structure for transmission of power, or its absorbtion/dissipation.

This ties in closely with what I spend a lot of my time training.

[cjurakpt]

I was taught a version of SLT in class with the in/in, out/out method and that was all well and good, I trained that way for a while. Then a couple of years ago we were working on a few things where inhaling reverse-breathing style initiates movement, so one day I found myself incorporating that into that section of SLT and it felt good. I asked my teacher about it and he said fine, if that felt right and I got the right mechanics happening. He then went on to tell me about the natural, no-rhythm approach. Nowadays I could breathe in or out in that section of SLT and both would feel fine since I've spent time on both. I will say that I very much find myself synchronising all my form movements with breathing, can't/won't/don't do the natural thing at all.

cool; thanks for sharing your experience

[cjurakpt]

I don't understand how people advocate total relaxation will make you faster, harder, stronger. Not possible IMHO. Unless you train those attributes in another way.

this is a common misconception, and IMPE relates to a misunderstanding of the Chinese term "sung", which is a core concept in taiji and bagua (and probably other arts) and which is a very difficult term to translate - many people interpret it as relaxation and manifest it as almost a collapse of the body's structural integrity; certainly relaxation is part of it, but it's a dynamic "relaxation", combined with a springy-ness, a resiliancy - you know you have it when you have it, both by how you feel inside once you get it, and also when you touch hands w/someone who has it (once you get it, pushing / rolling hands is totally changed: you listen, stick, etc. at a different level); based on your previous post, it sounds like you are not unaquainted with this concept in your solo practice at least...

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are as many different definitions of "internal" as there are people claiming to know something along these lines.

Some see it as nothing omre than correct alignment and structure for transmission of power, or its absorbtion/dissipation.

My Xingyi instructor saw it as movements and practices which adhere to the principles of TCM - Xingyi is based on five element theory, BaGua on the 8 trigrams, taiji on Yin and Yang. He claimed that for this reason styles other than these three cannot be internal. I have seen arguments that the 5 elements can be mapped onto WC movements, and therefore WC can be internal, but IMO the arguments are unconvincing.

Performance in any physical endeavour has to comply with the laws of physics and biomechanics first and foremost, as much as some seem to claim and wish it to be otherwise.

There seems to be an opinion helde by some that Iron Palm training is closely related to Qigong. Not really. Iron Palm, from what I've seen from several sources, involves striking bags and surfaces of varying hardness at varying intensities, coupled with the external application of herbal medicines to assist recovery and achieve the desired effect. Other than the herbs, the recipes for which are usually jealously guarded (meaning there is little comparison of efficacy and thus no guarantee of it, and concepts such as scientific testing and double blind trials an utter pipe dream), there is little mystery here, your body is adapting to imposed demands.

There is plenty of material on point hitting and the alleged affects thereof on the web - Erle Motaigue's site has a huge amount of stuff, some of which stretches credibility. Renzo and Carlos Gracie Jr were dead keen to fight him during an Australian visit some years ago after he insulted Gracie Jiu Jitsu in a mag article, but he surprisingly declined.

William Cheung does, or used to do, a seminar on dim mak. Like many, I have a copy of Yip Man's alleged notes on the subject. After the seminar, he basically says unless you can actually fight without it, it's a waste of time, and if you can fight without it, then its value is still questionable.

Nothing there you won't find in a basic TCM seminar (notes in my .sig)

You have to take Dim Mak for what it is and ignore it for what it is not.

[Toby]

this is a common misconception, and IMPE relates to a misunderstanding of the Chinese term "sung", which is a core concept in taiji and bagua (and probably other arts) and which is a very difficult term to translate - many people interpret it as relaxation and manifest it as almost a collapse of the body's structural integrity;

Yes! This is what I see a lot of in online videos, and this is what I vehemently oppose (IMHO of course - others obviously see it as a valid training method and an effective vehicle to get them where they want to be). It's scary (to me) to see how many advocate this method (as evidenced in a recent thread on the other "internal" forum (fuck I hate that word). Hell, it was clearly evident in the SLT/qigong video earlier in the thread. I can find so many faults in that video (from my perspective) it's not funny.

... certainly relaxation is part of it, but it's a dynamic "relaxation", combined with a springy-ness, a resiliancy - you know you have it when you have it, both by how you feel inside once you get it, and also when you touch hands w/someone who has it (once you get it, pushing / rolling hands is totally changed: you listen, stick, etc. at a different level); based on your previous post, it sounds like you are not unaquainted with this concept in your solo practice at least...

Yes again. I edited a previous post to reflect what you've said. I should've thought about that post more carefully, I missed a few things. I've felt this and maybe occasionally get glimpses of it when freeplaying (for want of a better term). But I'm not at that stage in my training and I don't train to get that effect yet, there are stages I need to progress through first.

[Sihing73]

TTT

Just making sure you know its back

Please keep on topic and refrain from insults, personal attacks, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TTT

Just making sure you know its back

Please keep on topic and refrain from insults, personal attacks, etc.

Where's the fun in that ??

[Liddel]

What i want to know form you guys is how 'In your opinion' does practice of the internals maifest itself in your application of Wing Chun....

What does it add to the use.... So we can actually get some valid info rather than the "i cant mention the methods cause its secret" BS.

I find that the VT im taught has the idea of being firm but relaxed...but in application its when and where possible.

IMO Chun by its very nature is internal because regardless of Lineage not using force against force has major cross over between lines, more so than other maxums

IMO though, all MA's have this in some part.

For me the idea of being firm but springy (someone used this term earlier) is about holding your ground in an area of fighting but knowing when to change and adapt depending on whats going on.

For example my Tan is firm in dispersing an attack, forces pressing on it are met with resistance...but to a certain point, at which time i let it go and change to Bong for instance to let forces go and attack open space with my free weapon, kick or punch.

The threshold obviously differs for each individual.

If im cliched up and pushed back im may try to stop being pushed but if the force becomes to much i may turn and try a throw or at least gain space ad timing to land an uppercut from CK or an elbow etc...

This is one aspect IMO and its just scratching the surface..... i would like to hear more from others...but

I find the idea of the 'internals' from my own POV to be entwined in the VT i do, its not here's VT now well do some internal training, its inherent in my actual style if you will. We train our bodies to behave and have the physical atributes to assist the body mechanics for the techs we're using as were doing learning them...

So this is why from my own POV i find it interesting when people talk about the internals as being a kinda seperate entity etc...

Thoughts ?

DREW

[anerlich]

Some other thoughts:

IMO this discussion won't reach any resolution or consensus (not that it has to!) without some sort of common understanding of what "internal" means.

My Xingyi/BaGua teacher held that internal does not necessarily imply softness.

According to him, Xingyi techniques can be HARD. "Hard as a fist of diamond," to paraphrase Henry Rollins. Far from flowing like water, they're like a titanium battering ram going straight up the middle. But, once again in his opinion, Xingyi is the most internal of the three neijia arts because it most precisely uses the principles of TCM , five elements, in its fundamental techniques and even basic defensive strategy. It's internal because of its base in TCM principles, not because it is "soft".

Is "internal":

* a system built on a conceptual framework of TCM

* built on yi (mind force) and qi (you know what that is, don't you?) rather than li (muscular strength)

* a set of training methods whose movements with respect to their purported goals are unusual, counterintuitive, esoteric, or even weird, goofy and run counter to modern science and even common sense

or something else?

[Mr Punch]

...I find the idea of the 'internals' from my own POV to be entwined in the VT i do, its not here's VT now well do some internal training, its inherent in my actual style if you will. We train our bodies to behave and have the physical atributes to assist the body mechanics for the techs we're using as were doing learning them...

So this is why from my own POV i find it interesting when people talk about the internals as being a kinda seperate entity etc...

Nicely put. This is what I've been slowly trying to nudge HW towards.

If I had to choose, I'd say my wing chun was external. But it has a lot of internal components. Chi is not one of them.

Anerlich is bravely trying to recouch the 'What is internal?' question. Well, that question is eternal!

Briefly put, to me internals are training parts of your body you can't see. It manifests itself in structure: an awareness and connectedness to kinetic chains in the body and how they effect your opponent through principle and technical application.

But that's all bull. There's no need for the distinction.

[Toby]

"Hard as a fist of diamond," to paraphrase Henry Rollins.

I prefer "as hard as a diamond in an ice storm", to paraphrase Ricky Bobby.

Otherwise agree with this:

I find the idea of the 'internals' from my own POV to be entwined in the VT i do, its not here's VT now well do some internal training, its inherent in my actual style if you will. We train our bodies to behave and have the physical atributes to assist the body mechanics for the techs we're using as were doing learning them...

So this is why from my own POV i find it interesting when people talk about the internals as being a kinda seperate entity etc...

and this:

a set of training methods whose movements with respect to their purported goals are unusual, counterintuitive, esoteric, or even weird, goofy and run counter to modern science and even common sense

and this:

Briefly put, to me internals are training parts of your body you can't see. It manifests itself in structure: an awareness and connectedness to kinetic chains in the body and how they effect your opponent through principle and technical application.

But that's all bull. There's no need for the distinction.

For me, I find anerlich's quote resonates particularly well. Stuff I learn often seems counterintuitive (or at least not something you'd think of yourself) yet it feels right and works well. A simple, harmless example - spread your fingers as wide as you can, keep your thumb straight. Now keep everything the same but pull the index finger as much as you can towards the thumb. Dunno about you but for me it engages the hand, forearm, upper arm and shoulder much more. One small change brings lots of change. I've got plenty of examples like that, where a minor change completely changes everything. This is just a simple "trick" with moving a finger, I've got things like that that apply to the whole body. The finger one is easy for anyone to try and less important than a body one. I've got another good "trick" I'd like to mention but it's probably best to refrain from posting it publicly. Anyway, nothing secret or "internal", it's just training in a different way, building a machine by individually tweaking all the parameters.

So in reply to:

What i want to know form you guys is how 'In your opinion' does practice of the internals maifest itself in your application of Wing Chun....

What does it add to the use.... So we can actually get some valid info rather than the "i cant mention the methods cause its secret" BS.

I dunno. I don't have a control sample since it's ingrained. I'd like to think that it makes me stronger, faster, better than a hypothetical control sample. It certainly hurts more so I can feel myself working harder. I've lifted a lot of weights so as an analogy it feels like the weight's always going up - it never gets easier. I know I'm doing the work so hopefully it's producing results. Dunno.

[jooerduo]

the extra power or strength you get from being relaxed, is not from being relaxed alone

you need to be relaxed, have a supporting body mechanic and know how to use that body mechanic with correct use of intentions in the mix, with a good balance of yin and yang, and works better if you time it based on your opponent's intention - thats my experience in a nutshell

[HardWork8]

I'm aware of what most people think.

I am also aware of what most people "think" as well.

It doesn't make sense to me at all, nor to my teacher, nor his.

Maybe you should search "outside"? I am not recommending that you leave your present school, but you can always attempt to research this concept further. Who know, you might even find a master or sifu who can give you a better personal understanding?

Not that I care, but AFAIK I'm in a very traceable and reputable line of IMA so this isn't something I've made up.

The world is full of kung fu schools of "traceable and reputable lines" but as everybody knows it is not full of authentic kung fu schools.

That is an interesting paradox.

I will say this - apparently eventually I should expect to reach a level where I might look "soft" to an observer and feel "soft" and "relaxed" myself, but I should actually feel like an immoveable object to an opponent (i.e. the "needle wrapped in cotton" analogy).

Now, that sounds familiar.

The concept is sound and that is what many internal martial arts train for and when they are doing so, they include a lot of chi kung exercises in their training. Emphasis is placed on training of tendons. Furthermore weight training is avoided specially by the most internal of styles.

However I should expect ~10 years of pain and hard work first, by training very "not relaxed".

And after 10 years of hard training you may touch hands with someone who is "softer" than you and he will completely overwhelm you. The "softness" training is an ungoing practice and it continues until the "end".

I don't understand how people advocate total relaxation will make you faster, harder, stronger.

It is relaxation without FLOPPINESS! I have been through this subject with other "distinguished experts" of this forum. Thanks for bringing back the memories,!

By the way, I hope that you can bring yourself to see the relationship between being relaxed and striking "faster", to hitting "harder".........The whole concept goes further than this, but this is a good place to start.

Not possible IMHO.

It is possible once the concept is better understood.

Unless you train those attributes in another way.

Unfortunately, sometimes the "another way" will take you away from that very "relaxation" and "softness" you are looking for.

A decent internal school will help you "connect" your internal training with those very attributes of making you harder, faster and stronger.

I am not talking necessarilly about Wing Chun here, either. Wing chun's internals are limited in most part compared to arts such as Hsing I.

Why? I couldn't care less.

But you "cared" enough to criticise that very same sifu. As I stated before, you should perhaps consider "looking" outside!

So you've got the required power?

I did not say that I have the required power. It is an ungoing process.

I don't.

Join the club.

I won't ever be satisfied with my level of power.

That is good too and I would suggest that you go further and don't be satisfied with your level of kung fu knowledge and understanding, that way you will research and perhaps see the other possibilities that exist inside the arts.

That's what I prefer to develop over my hand shape.

If you are referring to Iron Palm, then I will tell you that the purpose of this type of training is not to change the shape of your hand and at an advanced level nor is it to harden your hands.

[Toby]

The concept is sound and that is what many internal martial arts train for and when they are doing so, they include a lot of chi kung exercises in their training. Emphasis is placed on training of tendons.

Yes, we do this through "hard work", not total relaxation and feeling the chi (like the guy in that video).

Furthermore weight training is avoided specially by the most internal of styles.

I'm allowed to weight train, no problem. But I do powerlifting, not some of the more detrimental forms of weightlifting. I'll admit that e.g. bodybuilding might not be ideal.

And after 10 years of hard training you may touch hands with someone who is "softer" than you and he will completely overwhelm you.

Maybe. We'll see.

It is relaxation without FLOPPINESS! I have been through this subject with other "distinguished experts" of this forum. Thanks for bringing back the memories,!

Yeah, this is the distinction that no-one can define. How much should you relax? The answer is usually "just enough effort to get the job done". How do you know that in advance? And then when you strike, e.g. in that video, guaranteed you "unrelax" to strike. So when should you relax and when "unrelax"?

By the way, I hope that you can bring yourself to see the relationship between being relaxed and striking "faster", to hitting "harder"...

Yeah, I know that relaxing an antagonist muscle can help with the striking, but what about the agonist muscle? No-one from the "relaxation" school of thought likes to talk about those.

I am not talking necessarilly about Wing Chun here, either. Wing chun's internals are limited in most part compared to arts such as Hsing I.

Agreed.

But you "cared" enough to criticise that very same sifu.

I was responding to a post. Doesn't mean I'm going to find the guy, contact him and give him a bullet-point list of what I think's wrong with his approach from my perspective. And do you think he's going to care what I say?