Chi Sao in other arts?

[BruiserBrody]

Are there any other arts that use chi sao or a drill that is similar to chi sao?

[Liddel]

I would think there are many - one example is Tai Chi Toy Sau. Although some of the other styles that ive seen with a sticking type drill dont use up down left right foward back all at once...

They SEEM more isolated. Toy Sau seems to be foward and back only for instance...

But there are others with more knowledge on the subject than i.

Try searching 'Toy Sau' 'Toi Sau' on youtube and see for yourself.

DREW

[couch]

I would think there are many - one example is Tai Chi Toy Sau. Although some of the other styles that ive seen with a sticking type drill dont use up down left right foward back all at once...

They SEEM more isolated. Toy Sau seems to be foward and back only for instance...

But there are others with more knowledge on the subject than i.

Try searching 'Toy Sau' 'Toi Sau' on youtube and see for yourself.

DREW

One of acupunk instructors knew Tai Chi. He would do his thing thing and I would do mine...and we'd get along fine. Pretty cool, actually.

[CFT]

There is chi sau in Shaolin Five Ancestors.

[Toby]

I would think there are many - one example is Tai Chi Toy Sau. Although some of the other styles that ive seen with a sticking type drill dont use up down left right foward back all at once...

They SEEM more isolated. Toy Sau seems to be foward and back only for instance...

Ours is vertical circles rather than horizontal circles. Pressure's all around, similar to chi sao.

[k gledhill]

Vt chisao is only similar on the surface....most will associate 'touching' as the common idea and feeling. Using wrists as a contact point to generate force and adhere to the opponent, redirecting force etc...
The goals of the 'VT' chi-sao drill are easily lost to feeling games , whereby each player feels compelled to touch the other by any means , and it turns into a mess of flopping elbows, wrists following other wrists overhead etc...its a game you can play but you will...
not be focusing on the drills systematic progressive idea to make simple strikes function as deflections simultaneously..iow the key idea isnt to suddenly develop feeling by rolling blindly with each other, then randomly doing a strike or a trap to show how superior you are to the other 'friend/fellow student' ...[a lot of insecurity comes out in the drill]

The initial stage is one arm with the partner doing opposite arm ..my right their left, facing square , not as a tactical fighting position to copy when exchanging blows , but to be aligned and able to strike with each arm equally if and when required ....

the partners have two options to begin with....outside edge strike or inside edge strike.

outsdie edge: is any strike utilizing the outside of your forearm to 'slide' force off and to the sides gently as the strike is traveling forwards simultaneously... to be functional the elbow of the arm needs to be held inwards so the acute angle of the forearm allows this
ability in ONE ARM...we call the arm position Tansao, but it translates into palm up or elbow spreads off the line, so many make the mistake of taking the position and working it as a classical blocking action , like a karate block , moving off the centerline to occupy a space and ..block.
In reality this is simply a 'term' to differentiate arm ideas and uses from one outside to inside , each simply a strike or punch to the uninformed onlooker , but depending on the tactical directions chosen or receiveing while fighting , the VT fighter can change the controlling force of the strikes seamlessly without thinking to generate the required force to both deflect and strike with either arm using the 'inside' or outside' strike force combination in a SINGLE arm...rotating to its opposite force naturally ..ie tan jum tan jum or jum tan jum tan..depending what side your attacking or countering from....a fight moves like water , so we have to flow to either side of the idea ....ergo one arm drills

the single arms are tan v jum , each keeping the focus , not on sticking , but using the force of equal and opposite energy of tan v jum...
[ one tries to force the other offline if they insist on penetrating]
....to feed the others ability to maintain alignment of strike coupled with deflection of corresponding forearm /elbow positions....sounds simple eh ?

Inside edge :
....Jum sao...inward sliding elbow strike , again the partner uses the drill not to be sticky but use the 'energy' generated by each partner to hold the lines with real force trying to distort them...many will fall into common errors of moving elbows backwards while trying to roll/stick/ an arm coming at them , elbows will move out and the focus will shift to the 'contact' point in the wrists ...common because the ideas of striking etc...arent even known , outsiders will see and copy , but will only get a rough idea and may look like VT chi-sao....because they are 'touching' BUT the IDEA being developed is quite different ....

the stages of the drills become redundant , iow dan chi sao isnt done while fighting we simply strike in a 1beat count , using the 2 forces trained in the DRILL, while we shift and fight , not facing square as the drill, but to achieve a tactical position that has to be done with a proximity and forcefull intent to finish the fight asap...

We simply fight and attack counter with mobility to change the required working angles, all the time we simply strike relative to the tactical direction of fighting 50% of an attack with 100 % response...to help us we have one arm [each of ours ] capable of acting like 2 against a arm only trained to block laterally and strike in 2 beats ....
We wouldnt stand in front of an assault with 2 arms coming at us for the simple reasoning that it isnt a good place to be ...so what side ? the side they show you, the side they extend at you , the side that offers the easiest entry...relative to the line of force coming at us....


chi-sao evolves further to teach the requirements of close quarter striking with body unity to take the arms and give them force from the ground up through out structured drill positions...each arm needs to have a power source while doing the actions, without resorting to wide powerful swings and bobbing and weaving.
Further , we develop reactions to attempts to stop our strikes....so again we use each other as the barriers to develop, while not breaking the drill ideas...strikes are allowed to simply check force of punch..? force or no, many think an air strike is like rock scissors paper games ....ask someone to punch you with sufficient force to stop you in your tracks and send you back , while trying to maintain all the above ... and you will reveal to yourself some wasted time ....when you find that the idea of a fighter is to stick to your arms ..offer a sacrificial lamb so they can chase it like our 'jab' only its used to take the initial response with the vu tan/jum following ...you just have to let the opponent show you what to do...

[Wu Wei Wu]

Non-Classical Gung Fu uses a (non-classical) version of Chi Sao with increased forward pressure and the contextual framework provided by four main attacking shapes.

Its also important to recognise that even within Wing Chun, there is number of differing views on what Chi Sao is.

Suki

[anerlich]

Its also important to recognise that even within Wing Chun, there is number of differing views on what Chi Sao is.

Bearing this in mind, you could probably stretch the definition far enough to include pummelling and handfighting drills and practices from wrestling as well.

[Lindley]

Yes, each camp can have different variations of what chi sao is but the basic idea is that it is an exercise that is used to extract some ideas from. Where this becomes important is when we see Wing Chun people imitating a movement and trying to use fighting techniques to compensate some idea within what looks like Chi Sao. Chi Sao is purposeful and should be languaged as such. As you will likely not use Chi Sao techniques in a fight, if what you do trains your body to react, flow and control yourself and opponent to some degree of efficiency from your chi sao practice, then the Chi Sao has done its job.

[TenTigers]

any art that has bridge sensitivity will also include some sort of chi-sao like drills in their training. Hung-Ga, Bak Mei, Southern Mantis, Lung Ying, all contain a form of kiu-sao/chi-sao/tui/sao training.

[Wu Wei Wu]

"...far enough to include pummeling and handfighting drills and practices from wrestling as well."

No. I wouldn't describe these as Chi Sao or even "Chi Sao like". Pummeling is pummeling. Whatever the goal of pummeling is, such as securing hooks naturally in clinch position, is different from the goal of Chi Sao.

Whilst I mentioned that there is discrepancy on the various types of Chi Sao in the lineages of Wing Chun, I should have provided a proviso that despite the differences, you can usually recognize that Chi Sao is being done, even if it does look or feel different from the way one has been taught. Chi Sao at the wrists for example is markedly different from Chi Sao based on elbow alignment and pressure, but both camps would still agree that the other camp is still doing 'sticking hands'. To some degree, the shapes would still be recognizable.

So, IME I haven't really seen Wing Chun done in arts other than Wing Chun or its derivatives such as Non-Classical Gung Fu, Jun Fan, Jeet Kune Do.

Conversely, Tai Chi doesn't do Chi Sao, nor does Mantis, Choy Li Fut, Bagua etc etc.

In terms of similar type sensitivity drills, there are many throughout other arts, hubud in FMA, push hands in Tai Chi, pummeling (as mentioned).

Suki

[Phil Redmond]

Juk Lum (Bamboo Forest) Praying Mantis does chi sau. BTW, the ref in the clips below is Sifu Ralph Mitchell who helped train me for my first full contact match against Jonas Nunez. Ralph Mitchell and Tayari Casel were two of the Chinese stylists back in the day who proved that kung fu guys could fight full contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqoFQ...?v=FqoFQgJl1Yc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_LqHFop4Yk

[Liddel]

Im curious..... the other styles that have variations on Chi sau or Sticking drills (because thats the commonality.... 'sticking')

Do they enable the practitioner to use every movement contained within the style ?

I ask because from a VT POV i can use any and every VT action i see fit in free Chi Sao (were talking Gor Sau really not Chi Dan Sau an isolated sticking drill).

Do they have free versions also or just isolated ones ?
Thats were i see the most value of any sticking drill, how much of the style does it encompass.

DREW

[TenTigers]

As you know, the idea is not so much to stick as to strike. If contact is made, the bridge feels the energy and adapts, and continues to strike, whether or not trapping occurs is irrelevant. Cover,immobilize, run,strike. All arts will do this, in accordance with their structures and technique.

As far as toi -sao/chi-sao/kiu-sao,ting-kiu,etc is concerned, it is just a word, a term, the technique again, depends on the system's methodology. Don't get hung up on terms and words.
as my Sifu Tsang Wai-Ming would say, when I started comparing different systems' terms,"It's all the same s***!"
truer words have never been spoken.

[Phil Redmond]

As you know, the idea is not so much to stick as to strike. If contact is made, the bridge feels the energy and adapts, and continues to strike, whether or not trapping occurs is irrelevant. Cover,immobilize, run,strike. All arts will do this, in accordance with their structures and technique.

As far as toi -sao/chi-sao/kiu-sao,ting-kiu,etc is concerned, it is just a word, a term, the technique again, depends on the system's methodology. Don't get hung up on terms and words.
as my Sifu Tsang Wai-Ming would say, when I started comparing different systems' terms,"It's all the same s***!"
truer words have never been spoken.

Very true. Some people think that if it's not from Wing Chun it's not chi sao. There was chi sao before Wing Chun.