thanks canada!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dunno, there's a lot of countries that aren't involved at all.

or do you mean the players mentioned?

LOL, yes, I don't think Fiji is to blame

[SimonM]

It's very poor form, but typical of todays world leaders. TO me, it looks like more proxy war between russia and UK/US. If you look at how oil is distributed and by whom in europe, the picture gets a little clearer.

That element isn't absent. I said christian when referencing colonialism because in the colonial powers (us, uk, russia, france, germany, etc) christianity is the dominant religion... and religion has played such a large role in the middle east.

[Becca]

WHAT?!?!?!??!

West Bank;
Gaza Strip;
Golan Heights;
The abject subjugation of the Palestinians...

Israel is NOT innocent.
Nor is Al Quaeda or Hamas...

Didn't say they were innocent, said they weren't imerialistic. The Palestinians aren't innocent, either. they are 2 factions living in the same region, who both can claim historical ownership of that land, and can't seem to live there side by side in peace.

[SimonM]

Territorial expansionism is, IMO imperialistic, even if undertaken on a small-scale. And Israel has been, historically territorially expansionistic.

[lkfmdc]

Learn some history and you'll discover that well over 80% of what was "palestine" is what is now Jordon and Syria, ie the Israels didn't steal their land, their fellow arabs did! In fact, it serves Jordon and Syria's interests to direct Palestinian anger at Israel rather than at them so they capitalize on mass under education and propogandize the issue

Furthermore, Israle is a spec in the Arab world and was even more smaller and insignificant before the expansion. You would have thought that allowing the Jews to have a few acres of land in their historical home wouldn't have been such a huge imposition but Egypt, Syria and Jordon had to try and drive them off the face of the planet. If they hadn't started the wars they wouldn't have lost the land, it is that simple really

[Becca]

Territorial expansionism is, IMO imperialistic, even if undertaken on a small-scale. And Israel has been, historically territorially expansionistic.

How many thousands of years of being pushed around do they have to put up with before it's ok for them to play as nasty as thier neibors do? We, the WWII Allies, made Isreal as a salve because we allowed the Holicost to happen. We shoved one people over, making them homeless, to make room for another homeless people. Both have claim, one has powerfull allies and the other the suport of the region. There is no answer to this power struggle but tollerance, and that isn't the human way.

Taking the West bank may look to you like expansionism. But to me it looks like a people who have just gotten sick of all the BS and took controll of some land to use as a buffer.

[lkfmdc]

We shoved one people over, making them homeless, to make room for another homeless people. Both have claim,

read above, most of the Palestinian homeland is Jordon and Syria! Not Israel!

[Becca]

read above, most of the Palestinian homeland is Jordon and Syria! Not Israel!

Historacly, yes. But in 1947, no. In 1947, they had half of the land they'd barely been able to hang onto taken away and given to a people their ansestors had driven off and murdered for thousands of years. GIVEN, not won.

[SimonM]

How many thousands of years of being pushed around do they have to put up with before it's ok for them to play as nasty as thier neibors do?

It's never alright to say "others oppressed us so now we will become oppressors. NEVER."

We, the WWII Allies, made Isreal as a salve because we allowed the Holicost to happen.

So where is the Romani homeland?
How about we partition a section of the USA off just for gays...

The holocaust was bad.

BUT

1) TWO WRONGS NEVER MAKE A RIGHT
2) More than just jewish people were oppressed by it. And yet now you get accused of anti-semitism if you oppose Israel expanding beyond it's originally proscribed boundaries but most people won't even blink an eye if you call Romani "Jypsies".

[uki]

but most people won't even blink an eye if you call Romani "Jypsies".

romanian gypsies... i lived in bistrita and cluj-napoca for about 5-6months, the common consensus in romania is that they desire another vlad the impaler because he killed the gypsies... i must say as a people they are something else, yet they have a better exchange rate than the local romanian banks, which were charging me 5 bucks for every 20 dollar travellers check i cashed, the gypsies on the otherhand paid the market price, cash. it's all about mutual respect, to me the gypsies are just a people who go about things abit different than the rest of the population... but don't p!ss them off.

[SimonM]

Romani doesn't just refer to "gypsies" in Romania Uki.... It's the name that ethnicity has for themselves. And they are one of the biggest targets for petty racism.

[lkfmdc]

The holocaust was bad.

wow, understatement

[SimonM]

Really fvcking bad with a heaping side-helping of awful... is that better?

Because my point is that it's not right to cut the state of Israel slack just because some psychos in Germany went and tried to genocide people of Hebrew ethnicity.

I mean... maybe you could make that argument... if Israel were located IN Germany and if they had expanded into other German areas which they claimed as part of a reparations package.

But even that doesn't address inequal treatment of other victims of nazi genocide and eugenics campaigns.

Or other victims of modern genocides.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Holocaust was a horrible, horrible event in Human history, one that had Zero to do with the Palestinians.

[uki]

The Holocaust was a horrible, horrible event in Human history, one that had Zero to do with the Palestinians.

that depends on if you take into account sumerian history... i'll not say anymore of it because people can do their own homework if they choose to.