Lifting weights determential to sinking chi?

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter,
For a man who claims to understand physiology you are displaying a shocking misunderstanding of same.
You might want to spend some time slowing down a bit and feeling these things for yourself. It will cost you nothing and your understanding of many things will be greatly increased by it.

But let's just do this, tense up all of your muscles and then try to survive, much less win, a fight, against anyone, trained or untrained.
Remember, keep those muscles nice and tight the entire time.
Let me know how that worked for you.

Bob

One muscle group contracts while the opposing muscle group relaxes. That is the basic, underlying principle of human movement.

[Knifefighter]

Tai,
Try it the other way around. Relax your bicep and extend your tricep to bend your arm. Now relax the tricep and extend the bicep to straighten it (but only to a naturally straight position, don't overextend).

This is physiologically impossible. You might as well say to straighten your arm at the same time you bend it. Muscle contraction controls movement. Muscle does not "straighten"... it contracts (becomes shorter) or relaxes and lengthens when the opposing muscle group contracts.

The biceps flexes (bends) the elbow joint, while the triceps extends it.

[taai gihk yahn]

Tai,
Try it the other way around. Relax your bicep and extend your tricep to bend your arm. Now relax the tricep and extend the bicep to straighten it (but only to a naturally straight position, don't overextend).
I think you'll be surprised.
It is, of course, more complicated than that, but not much.

Bob

Bob, in the past some of what you posted has been of great interest and value; this, unfortunately, is not only just downright wrong, it's misleading: if you want to have someone engage in a visualization exercise, that's fine: the idea of what you are suggesting is similar to what I teach people when they want to go into standing hip extension, meaning that I have them think about elongating the entire spine, as opposed to bending at the lumbars; similarly, if you want someone to round the arm, you can have them emphasize the back of the arm expanding or if they want to straighten the arm, to visualize the the volar aspect "pushing" the arm straight; and I know exactly the feeling that you are trying to get at by this;

however, regardless of what you might feel subjectively, the objective reality of what the muscles are doing doesn't change just because you want to visualize differently; if your arm is bending, your biceps are firing; if it is extending, triceps are doing it; end of story; of course, the quality of the movement can vary, but the underlying fact of which muscles fire to move joints stays the same; this is not a debate, this is fact, and you just need to accept that, and stop trying to come off like you have some secret info on neuromuscular physiology that just doesn't exist

[Eric Olson]

I think it depends on the type of "weight lifting" that you do. Lifting that is focused on short isolated movements is probably going to be counter productive to Taiji. Taiji requires that you strengthen muscles all the way out to the joints, not just in the central belly of the muscle. I've yet to see someone who is "ripped" (ie big bulging muscles) that can apply the Taiji principles of movement effectively. The Taiji physique is more sinewy than bulky...and that's true of alot of fighting styles not just Taiji.

There is an added benefit to big muscles though and that is as armor. But building up "body armor" also goes against Taiji principles.

EO

[SimonM]

This thread has taken such a funny turn.

So I'm assuming, Eric, that you believe that anyone who practices Taiji should also not engage in any "hard" martial art that encourages "conditioning" to create "armor"...

[Bob Ashmore]

Gentlemen,
Believe as you wish, do as you will. I only asked you to try something different and see how it works for you, not to just follow me blindly and accept everything I say as gospel inspired truth.
From the responses I've seen, no one even tried. All I got was a lot of knee jerk "You're WRONG!" responses from people who feel they know better.
It's a pity, really. You might have learned something if you had tried.
Even if you did not agree after trying it, you may have learned something new.
Where is your sense of adventure?
Just to be able to say I did so, I tried the whole "contract the muscles" thing during my push hands practice with my partner yesterday. I got tossed around like a rag doll every time he felt my tension as I contracted. He was, frankly, amazed at the amount of tension in my body and how easily he was able to offset me and throw me, since we are usually very well matched. When I told him what I was doing, he also gave it try so we could use each other as a control.
Maybe I was having a bad day? We had to know.
We had the same result.

I can say I tried it your way and that it did not work well for me.
Can you say the same?

I like to leave an open mind on things and I try out new things all the time, I'm ust funny like that. I find that at least trying new things sometimes leads me places I'd never imagined.
Sometimes I even learn something useful. You might want to think about that...

In that same vein, I tried the muscular extension theory several years ago and found it worked for me much better than the old way I used to do things (and still do to some extent, I am by no means perfect at it).
If this is strictly "visualization" I can live with that, because it is a vision that works quite well for me. I have felt the changes in my own body, I have found greater rooting, greater ability to respond when incoming pressure suddenly lessens or is changed and much less tension in my body overall.
Since these are things I value, I have kept up my practice along these lines.
If I'm deluding myself, then it's a delusion that has carried over very well into my practice and my every day life.
I'll keep up all such delusions as long as they work. I'm funny like that too.

Since I have no desire to spend the amount of time required to work on changing closed minds, especially as there is no way to do so through online discussion, I will leave you gentlemen to your surety.
As with most online threads, there are entirely too many cooks in this kitchen to make a decent soup.
Funny though how some of the cooks claim to be "experts" who know everything there is to know about kinesiology, and yet the experts can't seem to agree on anything.
It leaves one a bit confused when the "experts" all make conflicting claims.
But that as it may...

For the record:
I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, nor will I ever be or claim to be, an expert at kinesiology (heck, I'd even bet I spelled it wrong!) or Tai Chi, or martial arts in general, or...
Well...
ANYTHING.
I'm just a guy who is doing his best to keep up with it all. I do my best to learn from everything I am presented and I think I do a fairly good job at that.
Only one thing is for sure: I certainly will never be so much of an "expert" at anything that I would not even be willing to try sometihng different just because my "expertise" made me think it was not worthwhile. That path leads only to stagnation.
Any knowledge I have is what I have from hands on experience and training in many different disciplines (no, Tai Chi Chuan is not my only martail art, it was not even my first martial art, it is however the only one I spend any time training now because it is what works best for me). I do not believe that knowledge to be absolute or entirely accurate. I try everything at least once, if I like it I make it a habit.
It truly must be nice to know it all and be so certain of it that trying new things or listening to different ways is beyond your capabilities, however it is my hope that I never reach that level.

I can and have only speak here of what works best for me. That is all I have ever done or will do.
Please, continue to do what works best for you and may you be happy and well.


Ciao,
Bob

[bawang]

taiji means ying and yang
where is the yang i only see ying
some moves in taiji is done soft only, some moves aree done HARD ONLY
if your forms everything soft its wrong
the qin na parts of yang taiji u need to be so tense you shat your pants

[SimonM]

ROTFLMFAO!

Bawang for Secretary of Education!

[bawang]

thanks frand
FRAAAAAAAAAAAAAND

[taai gihk yahn]

I only asked you to try something different and see how it works for you, not to just follow me blindly and accept everything I say as gospel inspired truth.

that's not the part anyone has a problem with; no one is taking issue with the activity you suggested per se; it's you explanation of what you think is happening when you "expand" muscles that is being taken issue with; nothing else;

From the responses I've seen, no one even tried. All I got was a lot of knee jerk "You're WRONG!" responses from people who feel they know better.

it's not knee jerk - you are describing muscles as being able to do something that they simply cannot do;

It's a pity, really. You might have learned something if you had tried.Even if you did not agree after trying it, you may have learned something new.Where is your sense of adventure?

actually, if you had read what I wrote instead of answering in a mopey manner, you might have noticed that I actually have tried what you are talking about, and that we actually agree on what it is that you feel in terms of "expansion", better root and whatnot - FYI, it's called "peng jing"...the "you're wrong" bit was specifically in regards to your claim that contracting biceps would extend the elbow / contracting triceps flexes it;

Just to be able to say I did so, I tried the whole "contract the muscles" thing during my push hands practice with my partner yesterday. I got tossed around like a rag doll every time he felt my tension as I contracted. He was, frankly, amazed at the amount of tension in my body and how easily he was able to offset me and throw me, since we are usually very well matched.

dude, first off, I don't know what you did during push-hands that made it easy for your partner to uproot you, although based on how you use terms like "tension" and "contraction" in a way that denotes rigidity, I am guessing that you were doing some kind of "locking out", which would suggest an isometric contraction (agonist and antagonist firing simultaneously around a joint); now, I don't know where you read my or anyone ever suggesting that you do that, because no one has or would - I mean, that would be a problem not only in taiji but really in most any sort of contact combat sport; actually, you were the one who kept making comments like "are you suggesting that I tense all my muscles" or something like that; again, you seem to have a pretty limited definition of what "contraction" and "tension" mean, informed by a layperson's perspective I guess; when talking about muscle function, these terms are descriptors that have specific definitions, and neither "contracting" nor "tensing" a muscle during taiji push-hands is inherently a problem - it's aquestion of when and how, f degree, that will determine whther you get tossed around or not;

When I told him what I was doing, he also gave it try so we could use each other as a control.

nope; as far as your "experiment" being objective, forget it - you already had made up your mind about what you would expect to see happen; self-fulfilling prophecy;

I like to leave an open mind on things and I try out new things all the time, I'm ust funny like that. I find that at least trying new things sometimes leads me places I'd never imagined. Sometimes I even learn something useful. You might want to think about that...

and you might want to think about reading a basic text on muscle physiology before misusing terms...

In that same vein, I tried the muscular extension theory several years ago If this is strictly "visualization" I can live with that, because it is a vision that works quite well for me. I have felt the changes in my own body, I have found greater rooting, greater ability to respond when incoming pressure suddenly lessens or is changed and much less tension in my body overall.

ok, finally; yes, your "muscle expansion theory" IS a visualization (and it's fine to "live with that", AFAIC), a metaphor if you will, for a very specific type of subjective experience (one with which I and others on here personally am very familiar); and FYI, I do understand why you think that the muscles are "expanding"; and I am telling you that despite what you think and feel, the biceps are still bending the elbow - but because qualitatively you are moving out of a different source (connective tissue, if you will), it doesn't feel like what you do when you just bend your elbow;

Since these are things I value, I have kept up my practice along these lines. If I'm deluding myself, then it's a delusion that has carried over very well into my practice and my every day life. I'll keep up all such delusions as long as they work. I'm funny like that too.

great; just don't expect your delusions when communicated in public to go undiscussed...

Since I have no desire to spend the amount of time required to work on changing closed minds, especially as there is no way to do so through online discussion, I will leave you gentlemen to your surety.
As with most online threads, there are entirely too many cooks in this kitchen to make a decent soup.

oh, boo hoo...I guess when presented with facts that you can't refute, the "knee jerk" response is that those presenting them are rigid and closed-minded and that when there are too many people espousing perspectives conflicting with yours, you duck out; well, in keeping with the kitchen metaphors, I guess if one can't take the heat...

Funny though how some of the cooks claim to be "experts" who know everything there is to know about kinesiology,

oh fer crissakes; look, did it ever occur to you that one can argue a single point with certainty without claiming to know absolutely everything about a given topic? and no one would contest that the so-called "experts" at kinesiology certainly don't agree about everything: for example, there is still a great deal of healthy debate about what actually is going on during "in vivo" spinal biomechanics - but the level of disagreement is within a relatively discreet arena, it's more about details than basics; however, they do agree about what we are discussing here, which is that when you flex your elbow, biceps fire, no matter what you may think or feel (again: basics);

and yet the experts can't seem to agree on anything.

can't agree on anything? no, actually they tend to agree on quite a lot;

It leaves one a bit confused when the "experts" all make conflicting claims.

what conflicting claims, specifically?

I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, nor will I ever be or claim to be, an expert at kinesiology (heck, I'd even bet I spelled it wrong!)

then waitaminit: how would you know what the "experts" are even talking about, let alone what they may or may not agree on? how can you possibly comment on the state of what experts know if you don't know anything about it yourself?

Only one thing is for sure: I certainly will never be so much of an "expert" at anything that I would not even be willing to try sometihng different just because my "expertise" made me think it was not worthwhile. That path leads only to stagnation.

no, that path also keeps you from wasting your time spending time on things that ultimately go nowhere; maybe if you had mastery in at least one thing, you would understand that concept; but you're into that whole self-effacement thing, that whole "humble pie" bit, I can see; ya know, it is possible to achieve mastery and still be open to new learning - but it doesn't mean wholesale acceptance of just any old thing as plausible...and one can have that awareness without being self-aggandizing or falsely modest - one can simply be aware of it as such...

It truly must be nice to know it all and be so certain of it that trying new things or listening to different ways is beyond your capabilities, however it is my hope that I never reach that level.

sounds like a nice case of sour grapes, is all...

[Eric Olson]

This thread has taken such a funny turn.

So I'm assuming, Eric, that you believe that anyone who practices Taiji should also not engage in any "hard" martial art that encourages "conditioning" to create "armor"...

Could you give an example?

Thanks,

EO