Public vs, Private

[chusauli]

The recently locked thread of public and private versions of an art got me thinking. Is there a private version of striking an opponent? Or a public version of striking an opponent? Is there a public vs. a private way of submission?

Martial arts are either functional or not.

Private vs. Public versions is like teaching for money, but not really teaching...

I have heard about public and private versions for many a time, but I think these are just people's way of saying, "I'm special, I've got the secrets."

People love a good mystery.

Bt our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think.

[SimonM]

I have no secrets.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The recently locked thread of public and private versions of an art got me thinking. Is there a private version of striking an opponent? Or a public version of striking an opponent? Is there a public vs. a private way of submission?

Martial arts are either functional or not.

Private vs. Public versions is like teaching for money, but not really teaching...

I have heard about public and private versions for many a time, but I think these are just people's way of saying, "I'm special, I've got the secrets."

People love a good mystery.

Bt our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think.

This is a subject close to my heart for I have had this debate with people many times.
There are many different ways to view it but I narrow it down to what is best for a system, being public or private?
Better in the sense that it makes it/keeps it, functional.
The answer:
It depends.
IF a system is closed door AND continues to be tested VS other systems, than its fine.
If it is private and only testes VS itself, NO, not a chance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now, there is something about keeping stuff private, look at BJJ and when it came on the scene and how well it did because no one had seen it before, well...almost no one.
Even guys like the Dog Brothers keep some stuff "private and closed door".
Its natural to keep certain things private.
I have a few "tricks of the trade" that I don't teach and may never teach, I am sure we all do.
Remember, not to long ago WC and SPM, for example, we closed door systems.

[donbdc]

You know I never heard of this stuff until I started studying Chinese Martial Arts.
Their were no secret wrestling moves, no secret boxing moves, no secret western fencing steps and nothing I ran across in Korean Arts!
My first Kung Fu instructor was Robert Smith, and he said so many intersting arts were taken to the grave, some from the boxer rebellion and some just not told.
Since thenI have studied some philipino and Malaysian arts and the seem to keep things in villages and families as well.
Just curious, is it a cultural phenomina.
It's a shame a lot of people get hurt w/ this stuff.
Cheers
Don

[couch]

Bt our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think.

TMA is dead. Oops...except here on the forums.

MMA (which is MT + BJJ just in case of some dispute) is all the rage right now.

Most stuff is going to people's basements if it isn't there already. Most clubs have a handful of students while MMA and BJJ gyms can have hundreds of students. So the fact that someone is teaching "secret" stuff isn't going to help any.

As it was stated before, either fighting a certain way is functional or not. MMA, IMO debunked a lot of martial arts and, like boxing does, shows that higher percentage stuff works.

If stuff is secret and shrouded in mystery...it might help keep the rice bowl filled but it doesn't help TMA on the grand scale. He!!, it doesn't even help on a moral scale!

Was talking with a friend last night about TMA and if there will ever be a comeback. Perhaps...but it will depend on the 'effective' and 'pressure-tested' martial arts to keep pushing forward. Dunno. Interesting topic.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TMA is dead. Oops...except here on the forums.

MMA (which is MT + BJJ just in case of some dispute) is all the rage right now.

Most stuff is going to people's basements if it isn't there already. Most clubs have a handful of students while MMA and BJJ gyms can have hundreds of students. So the fact that someone is teaching "secret" stuff isn't going to help any.

As it was stated before, either fighting a certain way is functional or not. MMA, IMO debunked a lot of martial arts and, like boxing does, shows that higher percentage stuff works.

If stuff is secret and shrouded in mystery...it might help keep the rice bowl filled but it doesn't help TMA on the grand scale. He!!, it doesn't even help on a moral scale!

Was talking with a friend last night about TMA and if there will ever be a comeback. Perhaps...but it will depend on the 'effective' and 'pressure-tested' martial arts to keep pushing forward. Dunno. Interesting topic.

Well, TMA have never been for the masses, that's what combat sports are for.
TMA = Elitist MA
What most view as TMA are the Sport arts that keep alive certain traditions, like TKD, Judo, Karate and so forth and they will always have their place with the masses.
MMA may be the "flavour of the month" and rightly so, but it doesn't appeal to all.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"But our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think."


***Here's what I think...you're right, Robert.

[TenTigers]

well, how do you explain certain Masters of unique skill, that although they have many students, none were able to 'get their hand" except maybe one or two?
-besides maybe he wasn't a good teacher? And those two were exceptional-bright, talented, and driven?
So sometimes it isn't that a skill is secret, or closed door. Sometimes the students never really invested the time to achieve that skill.
Perhaps the students weren't able to comprehend the methods.

Another point-I have had teachers tell me,
"This stays here."
"This is for you. Not for outsiders"

What goes on in Vegas...

[taai gihk yahn]

, no secret western fencing steps

not now - go back a few hundred years, when swords were used regularly, and I bet the community was rife w/that sort of thing (in fact, I can think of two european "period" fencing-themed movies dealing w/just that sort of notion)

[Knifefighter]

Now, there is something about keeping stuff private, look at BJJ and when it came on the scene and how well it did because no one had seen it before, well...almost no one.

The reason BJJ was so effective was because it had been tested publicly in Brazil for 50 years. If it had been a closed door system, it would never have been as effective.

[SimonM]

Knifefighter you forget that for a lot of people on this board if it didn't happen in the USA it didn't happen.

(I'm 90% teasing with this)

[Grilo]

Well, TMA have never been for the masses, that's what combat sports are for.
TMA = Elitist MA
What most view as TMA are the Sport arts that keep alive certain traditions, like TKD, Judo, Karate and so forth and they will always have their place with the masses.
MMA may be the "flavour of the month" and rightly so, but it doesn't appeal to all.

Umm... if they have never been for the masses why is judo so popular or TKD? or JKD for that matter. The sport arts do not keep "the" traditions alive that need to be kept. TMA like the kung fus' and jj's are the arts keeping the traditions alive. Case in point Judo. It use to be the MMA. It has strikes, throws, and submissions but as the sport side of it grows slowly and slowly they are not striking or submissing as much as they use to.

TMA will make a come back. MMA will die out as all the fighters are getting the same training and will plateau. Someone will revive an old TMA and start beating all the MMA and then it will be the flavor of the week.

What has to happen for TMA is for them to get together and make alliances so that resources can get shared and fees stay low.

my two cents

[TenTigers]

forgive my ignorance, but what did the Gracies do for 50 years?
What innovative technique did they develop-besides GnP, which for most streetfighters, is part and parcel.
I understand they refined it, along with the mount, and escapes from it,
but fifty years?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u41omoNO4U

people act is if they reinvented the wheel.

[SimonM]

IIRC most people mark the Helio Gracie / Mas Oyama (I think it was him) fight as the origin of the split between BJJ and JJJ. That was a while back now.

And it wasn't so much GnP they contributed (that was more the contribution of the UFC) it was rather a significant expansion of the tactical ground game for submission wrestling beyond what was previously available in Judo and JJJ.

I'm sure others can vet my statement for accuracy as I'm not 100% on this.