Public vs, Private

[anerlich]

There is an argument that the teaching process is best handled by providing the student with information in a controlled fashion.

The common BJJ example is keeping beginners away from leglocks, so that they learn to pass the guard.

That said, IMHO secrets are ultimately counterproductive. The best techniques are the common high percentage ones that work even though people know them. To properly test a move, and fully develop it, you need to do so against the widest possible variety of actively resisting opponents. You can't do that with secret or "too deadly for competition" techniques.

I've always seen parallels with cryptography. "Security through obscurity" is usually futile. The best algorithms are those which are publicly known and widely published, which have had the best cryptographers in the world try to break them over periods of years. If the algorithm still holds up after that sort of pressure testing, you can have a high degree of confidence it's going to be unbreakable.

TMA will make a come back.

I don't think it ever went away. It just has some competition and many of its assumptions and claims are being actively questioned whereas they weren't before.

MMA will die out as all the fighters are getting the same training and will plateau.

I doubt it. MMA is the fastest growing and evolving combat sport on the planet. BJJ has so many different flavours and approaches that one could never learn them all, and new approaches are developing all the time. IMO BJJ is at least as technically rich and diverse as any KF style. Also, unlike many TMA's it has no problem blending in and adapting techniques from other arts. I've been to a number of BJJ and MMA schools and approaches vary enormously. no way is everyone "getting the same training".

Plateaus occur when an MA regards itself as complete, fully developed, incapable of improvement, and doesn't need to change with the times and as new information and approaches come about. That's (some) TMA's, not MMA.

Someone will revive an old TMA and start beating all the MMA and then it will be the flavor of the week.

Unlikely. If you don't train for MMA competition and rules, you won't succeed. Most (not all) MMA is based on MT and Jiu Jitsu, both of which are based on traditional MA. Boxing and wrestling have traditions, which many overlook because there are no "Sifus" or "Masters" or Oriental mystique. You don't HAVE to train boxing, MT, wrestling and Jiu Jitsu to compete in MMA - its just that hardly anyone who doesn't train at least some of these arts has succeeded as yet, save for a few judoka like Yoshida and Parisiyan who cross-trained anyway.

What has to happen for TMA is for them to get together and make alliances so that resources can get shared and fees stay low.

There are some very large TMA organisations already. TKD and judo are Olympic sports. Sport karate and wu shu are alive and well.

I can't ever see the various WC orgs getting together. Too many egos, entrenched positions, and bad blood. Can you?

IMO what makes or breaks any MA academy, be it TMA or MMA, is the mat culture. You can find MMA and BJJ schools whose attitude is little more than glorified thuggery, but you can find others full of mutual respect, strong ethics, intelligent instruction and training, and discipline.

Good TMA schools teach healthy values. But you don't have to look far to find TMA schools run by dangerous fruit loops who stunt, or bring out the worst, in their students.

[Knifefighter]

IIRC most people mark the Helio Gracie / Mas Oyama (I think it was him) fight as the origin of the split between BJJ and JJJ. That was a while back now.

And it wasn't so much GnP they contributed (that was more the contribution of the UFC) it was rather a significant expansion of the tactical ground game for submission wrestling beyond what was previously available in Judo and JJJ.

I'm sure others can vet my statement for accuracy as I'm not 100% on this.

Mas Oyama was a Karate guy.

BJJ is basically the ground work of judo.

The break was between judo and JJJ and it was Kano.

The only "break" between BJJ and judo was the gradual inclusion of vale tudo into BJJ.

[TenTigers]

I don't think it ever went away. It just has some competition and many of its assumptions and claims are being actively questioned whereas they weren't before.

I find the ones who have the loudest voices in this regard are the nobodys who have not actually been exposed to high level techniques in the first place. Since they have never seen it, and their teacher's never taught it, then therefore nobody else has it either.It doesn't exist.
The "If I can't have it, then nobody can have it" whining of the spoiled child that didn't get his way.

Let me put this out there:
How many of you have seen, or felt technique that has absolutely blown your mind? Not the skill that is simply really, really good. But something that you thought, up to that time, just simply wasn't attainable, or even possible?

I'll give you a few.

Y.H. Park was one of the most amazing TKD practitioners I have ever witnessed. His technique was picture perfect. He moved so effortlessly, and when he would in a relaxed manner, nonchalontly side kick the leather Everlast heavybag, it would buckle in half, and hit the ceiling.
The whole building shook. I thought I would never see another human like that again.
Then I trained with Hong Young Ki-Hwang Kee's son in law, who used to train the ROK Marines. He was breathtaking. He moved like a fine tuned machine. When you grabbed his wrists, he would flex his hands, and his wrists would expand, and your grip would break. His wrists felt like steel cables with thin skin over them.
He once did a spinning back kick and stopped it with a snap, an inch in front of my nose-while I was attacking. His control was astonishing. He wasn't human.

My SPM teacher makes the air pop from inches away, his hands stop my hardest punches with what feels like a baby's caress, and can with the same move, jolt the nerves in my arms like electric shocks. I have seen him "block" a 6'6" 300 lb Eighth dan's punch and send him flying back from it-with what appeared to be a mere flick.
He says his teacher is twice as good-that boggles the mind.
HIS teacher says Lam was twice as good as he is!
It's not magic, it's not fantasy, it's devotion.
But it exists.
Maybe the only real secret is hard work, time, effort, dedication.
Ever wonder why we call it,"Gung-Fu?"

So share with us some of your experiences.

[Liddel]

I agree with alot of whats been said.....

My personal view robert is that, certainly in a TCMA sence the idea of having secrets has been blown out from something that was a smaller issue and made sence in a certain setting back in the day.

Knowledge is power and years ago keeping things indoors and not sharing was good for maintaining a MA's function or effectiveness.
How do you develope a strategy for something you've never seen before especailly because there were and are so many different styles.
Secrecy was how they gained an edge.
Today the edge isnt knowledge or indeed experience, in a compitition setting at high levels its about conditioning and will IMO.

I think it also stemmed from showing someone but not releasing the theory to a student so they couldnt change and adapt it for other instances in fighting or as a training method, like Andrew pointed out not showing leg locks to focus on passing guard. Or in VT learning sticking first before learning how to get to a point where we can stick.... its a training method.

I believe its a cultural thing, or it was... nowadays it been blown out to be mysterious and to develope intrest. Its basicaly BS marketing. We are unique we have stuff others dont.... its a ploy, because in this day and age of information nothing is really secret or special its just got different packaging.

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

... Martial arts are either functional or not.

Private vs. Public versions is like teaching for money, but not really teaching...

I have heard about public and private versions for many a time, but I think these are just people's way of saying, "I'm special, I've got the secrets."

People love a good mystery.

Bt our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think.

For your martial art to live inside you, you must have connected in some way to a great teacher.

Sometimes, to do this, we have to discuss how to teach new students. Private and public tuition is different. Money isn't an issue.

During your relationship with a Sifu, or brother, uncle, aunt and sister you all share times of hardship whilst training. Years go by and you're all still there learning, and witnessing people change and build into skilled martial artists. This may be more dramtic if you witness the beginning of a new school, where numbers are low and each individual receives specifics that others do not. Not secrecy, but selective teaching.

How we all arrive at our peak during our martial journey is our own little secret that is hard to share. Even if you can remember the exact path, your journey changes and you start again. The people have gone. Newbies try hard but can't endure. There's not enough time. Money is running out. Language changes. We all grow older.

Sharing is acheived through discussion more than fighting imo.

Let me put this out there:
How many of you have seen, or felt technique that has absolutely blown your mind? Not the skill that is simply really, really good. But something that you thought, up to that time, just simply wasn't attainable, or even possible?

I like this question. Probably the best question I've read on this forum.

Me? Too many times...

[anerlich]

I find the ones who have the loudest voices in this regard are the nobodys who have not actually been exposed to high level techniques in the first place. Since they have never seen it, and their teacher's never taught it, then therefore nobody else has it either.It doesn't exist.
The "If I can't have it, then nobody can have it" whining of the spoiled child that didn't get his way.

You quoted my post, so I don't know if you referring to me or not, but:

I've seen a CLF practitioner who could crush an old style glass coca cola bottle using his grip alone

I saw a Morio Higaonna demo. A quantity of bricks and tiles were meant to be delivered to the demo venue for breaking but did not arrive. So instead Sensei Higaonna went outside, found a steel 44 gallon drum and unceremoniously front kicked a hole through it.

The resurgence of the grappling arts and rise of MMA has caused some to question TMA's. Shine a spotlight, the ****roaches run for cover. Those with nothing to hide can enjoy the publicity. Why is that a bad thing?

I never said TMA's were crap. I train BJJ, but I have practised Wing Chun for 20 years and continue to keep the faith.

[TenTigers]

no Anerlich, I wasn't referring to you, and judging by your answer, it obviously doesn't apply. There are others, however who perhaps due to a bad experience, a sound thrashing, or frusutration because they couldn't make their s*** work,or for self-promotion, or perhaps just because they found a new toy, insist on throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[anerlich]

no Anerlich, I wasn't referring to you, and judging by your answer, it obviously doesn't apply.

Cool. Peace.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The reason BJJ was so effective was because it had been tested publicly in Brazil for 50 years. If it had been a closed door system, it would never have been as effective.

Yes, we are aware of that, doesn't change the FACT that the people going into the early UFC's had no clue, does it?
Heck I heard of GJJ before the first lethal weapon, where it made its "debut"

[t_niehoff]

no Anerlich, I wasn't referring to you, and judging by your answer, it obviously doesn't apply. There are others, however who perhaps due to a bad experience, a sound thrashing, or frusutration because they couldn't make their s*** work,or for self-promotion, or perhaps just because they found a new toy, insist on throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

For another POV, let me say that over the years I too have seen amazing demonstrations but what I haven't seen is any of these people with amazing demonstration abilities able to do those things while fighting genuinely resisting, competently-skilled opponents. And while we hear stories of that happening, like Bigfoot and the Lochness monster, proof of such things always elude the light of day.

My view is that those sorts of demonstrations are both useless and deceptive -- used to convince people that "you too can have superpowers", that those guys have something to offer, so that people go off chasing (money in hand) those things when in fact no one can do these things in fighting (certainly not consistently and reliably), including the the demonstrating master. They are just demo skills (though highly developed) and nothing more. Put one of these amazing demo masters in against some moderately skilled MMA fighter, someone with no secrets, with no superpowers, with just solid fundamentals, and we'd see the demo master ground into pulp.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Umm... if they have never been for the masses why is judo so popular or TKD? or JKD for that matter. The sport arts do not keep "the" traditions alive that need to be kept. TMA like the kung fus' and jj's are the arts keeping the traditions alive. Case in point Judo. It use to be the MMA. It has strikes, throws, and submissions but as the sport side of it grows slowly and slowly they are not striking or submissing as much as they use to.

TMA will make a come back. MMA will die out as all the fighters are getting the same training and will plateau. Someone will revive an old TMA and start beating all the MMA and then it will be the flavor of the week.

What has to happen for TMA is for them to get together and make alliances so that resources can get shared and fees stay low.

my two cents

I don't think you read my post correctly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I find the ones who have the loudest voices in this regard are the nobodys who have not actually been exposed to high level techniques in the first place. Since they have never seen it, and their teacher's never taught it, then therefore nobody else has it either.It doesn't exist.
The "If I can't have it, then nobody can have it" whining of the spoiled child that didn't get his way.

Let me put this out there:
How many of you have seen, or felt technique that has absolutely blown your mind? Not the skill that is simply really, really good. But something that you thought, up to that time, just simply wasn't attainable, or even possible?

I'll give you a few.

Y.H. Park was one of the most amazing TKD practitioners I have ever witnessed. His technique was picture perfect. He moved so effortlessly, and when he would in a relaxed manner, nonchalontly side kick the leather Everlast heavybag, it would buckle in half, and hit the ceiling.
The whole building shook. I thought I would never see another human like that again.
Then I trained with Hong Young Ki-Hwang Kee's son in law, who used to train the ROK Marines. He was breathtaking. He moved like a fine tuned machine. When you grabbed his wrists, he would flex his hands, and his wrists would expand, and your grip would break. His wrists felt like steel cables with thin skin over them.
He once did a spinning back kick and stopped it with a snap, an inch in front of my nose-while I was attacking. His control was astonishing. He wasn't human.

My SPM teacher makes the air pop from inches away, his hands stop my hardest punches with what feels like a baby's caress, and can with the same move, jolt the nerves in my arms like electric shocks. I have seen him "block" a 6'6" 300 lb Eighth dan's punch and send him flying back from it-with what appeared to be a mere flick.
He says his teacher is twice as good-that boggles the mind.
HIS teacher says Lam was twice as good as he is!
It's not magic, it's not fantasy, it's devotion.
But it exists.
Maybe the only real secret is hard work, time, effort, dedication.
Ever wonder why we call it,"Gung-Fu?"

So share with us some of your experiences.

I hear you bro and you know what? that is more than anything else, the crux of the matter.
What one has seen and experienced.
Now, as you know, I typically don't take anyone's word for anything, even more so MA related and even more so if I am being taught something that can save my butt or cost me my butt, I don't leave it to chance.
The high level of skill you mention, I have been blessed to see and even experience first hand.
When people make fun of TKD I laugh because I have seen what TKD can do.
Fact is, like I said before but I will clarify more now, Traditonal FIGHTING systems are not and never have been for anyone.
EX:
A friend of mine is heavily into MMA and he had no faith in the PE fist, "that crap doesn't work, it's useless" he said and he had a WC back ground before MMA.
He said that all the times HE tried to work it, it never worked and even his teacher couldn't make it work.
I asked him how many PE fist push-ups he could do and he said, " How many what?".
He couldn't even do 1, how can someone make a call on the effectivness of a technique if he can't even perform its most basic "function" ?
I showed him mine, first I did 10 PE push-ups then, when he held a yellow pages book to his chest, I drilled him with it.
He understood then.

[LoneTiger108]

... A friend of mine is heavily into MMA and he had no faith in the PE fist, "that crap doesn't work, it's useless" he said and he had a WC back ground before MMA.

PE fist? Would that be a Phoenix Eye? If it is, and he's a WC man, he should've had more knowledge of it in the first place!!

...They are just demo skills (though highly developed) and nothing more. Put one of these amazing demo masters in against some moderately skilled MMA fighter, someone with no secrets, with no superpowers, with just solid fundamentals, and we'd see the demo master ground into pulp.

Agreed (to some extent)

But ask for a duel on the streets or a beimo in front of the village with no rules, and I feel these 'Demo Masters' might just walk away intact. And if they are too old to fight they would just select a good level student to give it a go instead.

Truth is, we all know a few tricks here and there. Solid fundamentals is just good kung fu imo and most decent teachers have that, plus years of experience teaching.

Far too much credit is given to the new breed of MMA competitor imo. It's almost like a severe 'lack of respect' has caused the new generations to question the old boys. I dunno about the States, but here in the UK our generation gap is widening but the 'respect' is still hanging in there!

You don't visit a Master to learn to brawl imho.

[t_niehoff]

But ask for a duel on the streets or a beimo in front of the village with no rules, and I feel these 'Demo Masters' might just walk away intact. And if they are too old to fight they would just select a good level student to give it a go instead.

Many people mistakenly believe that alot of things they hear or that the things they see in demo/nonfighting will work/transfer to fighting. That's why those things sell. They don't sell based on proven usefulness in fighting. Instead of relying on belief, let's rely on evidence -- seeing for ourselves someone actually do those things while fighting a competant fighter -- and reject those things we never see.

Truth is, we all know a few tricks here and there. Solid fundamentals is just good kung fu imo and most decent teachers have that, plus years of experience teaching.

Good, solid skills don't depend on tricks. Solid fundamentals (fundamental skills) are those things that work -- and have proved and continue to be proved -- in fighting with competant opponents. If someone has those solid fundamentals they will be able to show them in fighting/sparring against competant fighters. And, in fact, you can't show or see the fundamentals except in/by fighting.

[t_niehoff]

EX:
A friend of mine is heavily into MMA and he had no faith in the PE fist, "that crap doesn't work, it's useless" he said and he had a WC back ground before MMA.
He said that all the times HE tried to work it, it never worked and even his teacher couldn't make it work.
I asked him how many PE fist push-ups he could do and he said, " How many what?".
He couldn't even do 1, how can someone make a call on the effectivness of a technique if he can't even perform its most basic "function" ?
I showed him mine, first I did 10 PE push-ups then, when he held a yellow pages book to his chest, I drilled him with it.
He understood then.

This is a good example of what I mean: you use an example of a nonfighting demo to "prove" your point of the usefulness of TMA. "Boards don't hit back."

Why not a demo of your PE while sparring with a (genuine) muay thai fighter?