Public vs, Private

[TenTigers]

I wasn't referring to tricks, demos, parlor trcks, or whatever. I was referring to seeing, touching, witnessing real, high level skill. Period. Skill that even a blind man can see is immediately applicable, transferrable, useabel(pick a word) in combat.
Sure, I know in past threads, and on youtube, people have shown some pretty cool feats, breaks, techniques, whatever. This is not what I was referrring to. If you need to, re-read my original post.

As far as learning over tea. There are many things you learn about your art, yourself, connections, understandings occur through discussion, perhaps due to the relaxed atmosphere, that do not occur otherwise. Often times, you need to think about your art. What youare doing right, what you are doing wrong. How different things affect you. Sometimes learning the correct attitude for training is explained. It is endless. Many things happen in discussion over tea. There is much more to direct transmission than simply hitting you in the head.

Some of you keep sidelining and hijacking the discussions. Give some of us the benefit of the doubt that we might have been around the block a few times, and what you are "enlightening" us with is nothing new. Your discussion has been done to death, and really belongs on another forum. We are discussing something else entirely.

[KPM]

Bt our arts are falling by the wayside...they may eventually become extinct with all the secrecy.

Love to hear what you think.

I agree with you 100% Robert! I have had one prominent Wing Chun Sifu from Australia tell me that he did not speak about his lineage in forums or amongst people that weren't his students because this would be like "casting pearls before swine." Yet I think back to when Ted Lucaylucay was still around and going strong. He did a series of seminars around the country aimed exactly at revealing things that might have been considered "secret" about FMA instruction in the past. His concern was for quality and effectiveness amongst FMA practitioners, not about keeping things secret. One of my previous instructors, who many are familiar with on this forum (but who shall remain nameless lest the moderators feel the need to lock this thread as well) once seriously chastised me for asking in a semi-private discussion forum about the use of a "Got Sao" in a Wing Chun lineage other than our own. He was concerned about telling people outside our lineage too much about what we do. It got to the point that he told me not to participate in any on-line forums because I have a big mouth (which may be true) and he was afraid I would say things he didn't want me to say. That whole "Chinese Master" act that even some on this forum like to put forth where you insinuate you know something but won't say it outright just really irritates me. It does no one any good. There may have been a place for secrecy in the past when keeping a potential opponent in the dark about how you fought might save your life just doesn't apply today. We should all be willing to share what we know and the insights we have in order to lift the standards in Wing Chun in general.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wasn't referring to tricks, demos, parlor trcks, or whatever. I was referring to seeing, touching, witnessing real, high level skill. Period. Skill that even a blind man can see is immediately applicable, transferrable, useabel(pick a word) in combat.
Sure, I know in past threads, and on youtube, people have shown some pretty cool feats, breaks, techniques, whatever. This is not what I was referrring to. If you need to, re-read my original post.

As far as learning over tea. There are many things you learn about your art, yourself, connections, understandings occur through discussion, perhaps due to the relaxed atmosphere, that do not occur otherwise. Often times, you need to think about your art. What youare doing right, what you are doing wrong. How different things affect you. Sometimes learning the correct attitude for training is explained. It is endless. Many things happen in discussion over tea. There is much more to direct transmission than simply hitting you in the head.

Some of you keep sidelining and hijacking the discussions. Give some of us the benefit of the doubt that we might have been around the block a few times, and what you are "enlightening" us with is nothing new. Your discussion has been done to death, and really belongs on another forum. We are discussing something else entirely.

It boils down to context and experience, not expereince in the sense of how long one has done MA, but in what one has experienced in their time doing MA.
I don't need to get KO'd by a boxers left hook to know the left hook works.
That said, many of the issues people have with private MA instruction is that it tends to be, in THEIR belief, not practical enough.
That is usually the case, but not always the case.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with you 100% Robert! I have had one prominent Wing Chun Sifu from Australia tell me that he did not speak about his lineage in forums or amongst people that weren't his students because this would be like "casting pearls before swine." Yet I think back to when Ted Lucaylucay was still around and going strong. He did a series of seminars around the country aimed exactly at revealing things that might have been considered "secret" about FMA instruction in the past. His concern was for quality and effectiveness amongst FMA practitioners, not about keeping things secret. One of my previous instructors, who many are familiar with on this forum (but who shall remain nameless lest the moderators feel the need to lock this thread as well) once seriously chastised me for asking in a semi-private discussion forum about the use of a "Got Sao" in a Wing Chun lineage other than our own. He was concerned about telling people outside our lineage too much about what we do. It got to the point that he told me not to participate in any on-line forums because I have a big mouth (which may be true) and he was afraid I would say things he didn't want me to say. That whole "Chinese Master" act that even some on this forum like to put forth where you insinuate you know something but won't say it outright just really irritates me. It does no one any good. There may have been a place for secrecy in the past when keeping a potential opponent in the dark about how you fought might save your life just doesn't apply today. We should all be willing to share what we know and the insights we have in order to lift the standards in Wing Chun in general.

Its a tricky slope bro, on the one hand, knwoing soemthing that is not common knowledge gives you the edge, on the other, how can you develop it correctly and practically without exposing it to OPEN fighting?

[chusauli]

My guess is if an instructor teaches, they should simply teach.

Of course, each may have their requirements before releasing "advanced" material.

Secrets of the past like the Yi Jing, Feng Shui, Astrology, medicine, acupuncture points, are hardly secrets these days, as well as physical training, forms, etc.

Of course, real secrets are in the training progression and application. I have yet to see fighters get knocked out by mysterious secret techniques. Most people lose by the most popular movements - i.e. knee to the face, right cross, naked choke, etc.

Many of these "secrets" are just details or part of the lore of a system. But some of these details are so difficult to train, that unless you went and trained in a particular system for a while, you wouldn't be able to do what a trained practitioner could do.

Others use this to their advantage for ego boost, money, ego enhancement, advertising, etc.

This has been a great discussion!

Best regards,

[couch]

This has been a great discussion!

Best regards,

This HAS been a great discussion so far. It has given me a lot to think about.

[Knifefighter]

But ask for a duel on the streets or a beimo in front of the village with no rules, and I feel these 'Demo Masters' might just walk away intact. .

As someone who has been around for years in environments of no rules matches, my experience has been that, almost without exception, the Demo Masters get smoked.

[Knifefighter]

Obviously we have to DO the physical part of the art and pressure test, but how much of the way of combat is learned via discussion?

Very little.

[Knifefighter]

Wanted to add something to this, The Gracies tested their MA in public VS all systems and people, but they did train in "private" and kept many things "in the family".
Supposedly they still do.

Keeping something private means that others will pass you by. The Gracies have learned this lesson. Which is another benefit of open testing. It only lets you keep disadvantageous practices for relatively short durations before you are forced to change them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keeping something private means that others will pass you by. The Gracies have learned this lesson. Which is another benefit of open testing. It only lets you keep disadvantageous practices for relatively short durations before you are forced to change them.

Agreed, but its not only the TMA that are guilty of this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As someone who has been around for years in environments of no rules matches, my experience has been that, almost without exception, the Demo Masters get smoked.

I would tend to agree, perhaps not so much in the past, though it may be debatable, but more so now.
One of the reason you almsot never see MA being done in a fight like they are demo'ed is because they DON'T pressure test them in THAT way and when they do try, because of lack of pressure testing, the fail because their whole training was base don a false premise.
Typically.

[chusauli]

As someone who has been around for years in environments of no rules matches, my experience has been that, almost without exception, the Demo Masters get smoked.

I agree 100%!

Let's say someone has studied in secret an unknown system, maybe one that was once proven in previous generations, but without testing in today's environment, they wouldn't know how to handle boxing, wrestling, judo, muay thai, BJJ, etc. or even popular martial arts system of the present, let alone the weapons of today.

Having a student only study Chi Sao without fighting training is ineffective. There has to be ongoing adaptation to the environment.

That's also why no one art is complete.

[Knifefighter]

I would tend to agree, perhaps not so much in the past, though it may be debatable, but more so now.
One of the reason you almsot never see MA being done in a fight like they are demo'ed is because they DON'T pressure test them in THAT way and when they do try, because of lack of pressure testing, the fail because their whole training was base don a false premise.
Typically.

When I was 19, I fought a kung fu "master" that had resulted from a heated pick-up flag football game. I knew the guy and had seen him do some amazing demos. He had a reputation as some kind of unbeatable fighter based on these demos. My only training at the time was high school wrestling and I was convinced that I was going to get completely creamed. I shot it in, double legged him and beat the snot out of him on the ground. The guy had no clue about anything related to actual fighting... although he looked like he did when he did his demos.

[lkfmdc]

I started off in Korean arts, then spent two decades (+) in TCMA.... If a teacher tells you that you can only learn something "later" or it is "special" or "secret" etc I can say without reservation it is little more than a way to deflect your inquiry. And in many cases it is because the teacher DOES NOT KNOW THE MATERIAL

There are things I learned from CTS that were supposed to be "secret" or "advanced" or "private"... He taught them to ALL OF US. I would visit with teachers on the west coast, mention those things, they'd give me the old "secret" speech and then I would inform them that I had already learned it. 9 out of 10 times they would then admit that they didn't learn it.

Even if I have a student regularly attending classes it is going to take me YEARS to teach them everything I've learned over the years.

To make that more complicated, I keep learning, and as I learn I change stuff. Why would I hold back when I don't even have the time to teach them the things I consider basic?

[sanjuro_ronin]

And that truly is the crux of the thing, pressure testing to see in what regard you system is lacking.
How do you do thing in a "closed door" environment?
You can't.
There was a time that systems were created to "defeat" other systems and to some extent, this still goes on.
The view that some have that WC was created to defeat the "long bridges" of the typical systems of the time, is an example.
But this is possible only by pressure testing a system VS the types of systems that they will be facing.
Training WC VS WC makes WC work VS WC.