Public vs, Private

[sanjuro_ronin]

When I was 19, I fought a kung fu "master" that had resulted from a heated pick-up flag football game. I knew the guy and had seen him do some amazing demos. He had a reputation as some kind of unbeatable fighter based on these demos. My only training at the time was high school wrestling and I was convinced that I was going to get completely creamed. I shot it in, double legged him and beat the snot out of him on the ground. The guy had no clue about anything related to actual fighting... although he looked like he did when he did his demos.

Heck, when I was 13 I got my clock cleaned by a boxer because I thought my uber deadly skills were just that based on my quite excellent forms and demo-skills.
Got learn sometime.

[kung fu fighter]

I agree with you 100% Robert! I have had one prominent Wing Chun Sifu from Australia tell me that he did not speak about his lineage in forums or amongst people that weren't his students because this would be like "casting pearls before swine." Yet I think back to when Ted Lucaylucay was still around and going strong. He did a series of seminars around the country aimed exactly at revealing things that might have been considered "secret" about FMA instruction in the past. His concern was for quality and effectiveness amongst FMA practitioners, not about keeping things secret. One of my previous instructors, who many are familiar with on this forum (but who shall remain nameless lest the moderators feel the need to lock this thread as well) once seriously chastised me for asking in a semi-private discussion forum about the use of a "Got Sao" in a Wing Chun lineage other than our own. He was concerned about telling people outside our lineage too much about what we do. It got to the point that he told me not to participate in any on-line forums because I have a big mouth (which may be true) and he was afraid I would say things he didn't want me to say. That whole "Chinese Master" act that even some on this forum like to put forth where you insinuate you know something but won't say it outright just really irritates me. It does no one any good. There may have been a place for secrecy in the past when keeping a potential opponent in the dark about how you fought might save your life just doesn't apply today. We should all be willing to share what we know and the insights we have in order to lift the standards in Wing Chun in general.

I completely agree with Keith regarding "sharing what we know and the insights we have in order to lift the standards in Wing Chun in general". when i joined this forum that was what i thought it was all about, not about holding secrets from one another to protect certain wc linages. wing chun already has a bad enough reputation as not being practical under real pressure from guys who actually fights such as MMA and Muay thai fighters. while we fight to hold secrets from one another instead of uniting to bring back respect to the wing chun system, they laugh at us when you mention you practice wing chun. Look no further that the record of wing chun fighters in the ufc, they never won a fight. No wonder we have yet to produce a professional fighter who wins at that level.

[sihing]

And that truly is the crux of the thing, pressure testing to see in what regard you system is lacking.
How do you do thing in a "closed door" environment?
You can't.
There was a time that systems were created to "defeat" other systems and to some extent, this still goes on.
The view that some have that WC was created to defeat the "long bridges" of the typical systems of the time, is an example.
But this is possible only by pressure testing a system VS the types of systems that they will be facing.
Training WC VS WC makes WC work VS WC.

Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

Regarding training WC vs WC, I belive this is a good method if you want to acquire specific Wing Chun skills. Partly because WC is used in a specified arena of combat IMO, and that is when there is a clash of arms or a interruption of your strikes towards someone by them blocking your strike, or you making contact with his, this is where some of the skills acquired from WC training come into play (the most common skills that WC is known for, there are other skills learned as well). If I train WC vs Boxer to early, with the boxer avoiding contact and hitting around my centerline attacks and defense, I will never Learn what to do when my strikes are defended with a arm to arm contact. Do you get my drift?......Now, some fighters when there is a clash at close range will shoot in for a takedown, throw another punch with the other side, use that same hand to come around with a hook, etc etc.. there are a million and one things one can do when there is a clash of strikes and defenses.....Basically, in WC we follow in and go forward towards your COM, regardless of how someone defends my strikes, we learn not to go around something, but to deflect/absorb/ward off, trap it, hit thru it, push/pull, and lots of other things. All of this is happening very fast. We learn to not stop, but to flow thru things, while maintaining a certain body mechanic and structure......Now once this is learned, how to deal with heavy contact pressure and such, we then have to learn how to deal with people that avoid the pressure. Most of this has to do with eating their space, and functioning in very close range environment, so that they can't use their longer range strikes or kicks effectively, because you are attacking their COM, while hitting them with everything you got. This takes a certain body mechanic and sensitivty to perform effectively. WC requires courage to work the way it is meant to, as you learn not to retreat from someone attacking, but rather go forward, into their attacks, eating their space and taking it to them, applying this is hard, and not for everyone.

IMO it is never about testing the "System", but rather testing the individuals increased combat effectiveness due to his training in the WC system. WC by itself cannot do anything, it is us, human beings that makes the training become alive. So if that is true, it is never WC vs Boxing, or WC vs Wrestling, or WC vs MT, rather it is individual A vs Boxing, Individual C vs Wrestling, and Individual D vs MT, since WC is only a Training system, rather than a MA that says when he does this you do that, this is application based model......One has to learn the system, than apply it for themselves by putting it to the test with other people from whatever discipline ***this is an individuals personal decision, based on their needs and wants from the system they train in***, as no two people that learn a specific set of knowlege apply things exactly the same way. The goal is to "Never" need to exibit or demonstrate WC in a fight, but to use the training when ever it is needed. WSL said it best, never be a slave to the system, we need to use it as it is needed for whatever situation comes our way.

WC is not complete, in that it encompasses all techniques and concepts/principles known in the MA, it is a specific, simple system that teaches basically one punch, but one punch with total body mechanics behind it giving one good solid power in their strikes, that can be launched one after the other in quick succession with a built in guidence system towards it's target. It is meant to be used in situations that are unexpected, will no prior knowledge by the person being attacked. One could easily come up with a strategy to defeat a so called "WC" fighter, if they had prior knowledge and awareness that the fight was going to take place. This can be said for any practitioner of any MA/Fighting art. Some people prefer Boxing, or Karate or FMA striking systems as their stand up method, this is find and dandy, as all of these arts have something to offer. It is only when you say, "Only I have the answers, and Only what I do is the best", that you need to stand up and prove your point.

Private vs Public, this is marketing scheme's to bring the gulible in for the purposes of increasing profits. I know for a fact, thru my own experience, that some people just don't know what they don't know. Most of us have to be taught how to do something, and then practice it over and over again. There are no real secrets out there, just things we don't know yet

James

[Knifefighter]

If I train WC vs Boxer to early, with the boxer avoiding contact and hitting around my centerline attacks and defense, I will never Learn what to do when my strikes are defended with a arm to arm contact.

And you will never learn how to fight against a boxer... only against another WC guy.

BJJ guys learned this lesson about leg locks about 10 years ago or so (although some of them still haven't take that lesson to heart when it comes to heel hooks).

[SimonM]

Nobody is saying it's BAD to train VS your own style.

Just that it's BAD to JUST train VS your own style.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issue of training only or the majority of time VS your own system is one of function and practicality.
How practical is it to train in a way that has very little cross-over in terms of real fighting in a self protection or even sport application?

[sihing]

The issue of training only or the majority of time VS your own system is one of function and practicality.
How practical is it to train in a way that has very little cross-over in terms of real fighting in a self protection or even sport application?

I think one has to see how the training does relate to self protection. When I teach something very WC specific, like dan chi for example, I try to relate it to how one could use what they are learning from the drill to an actual situation. All we are really doing with a drill like dan chi is isolating a particular situation or moment in time, to learn a particular attribute, body mechanic or concept. Problem is people become masters of drills, without the knowledge of how it actually relates to a real situation. Fights will not happen from a dan chi structure, but if I punch you, and you defend by having a hand/arm on the inside of my forearm, right there is the moment that the training kicks in, and only for that moment (e.g. I can use the idea fok sau teaches to subdue your arm, make it go down and away from me, all the while I am still heading towards your COM and striking you). The drill is a basic one, and is accompanied with other drills later on that bring about more realistic actions in the training, but dan chi is the starting point.

JR

[Liddel]

I think from that point james you need to take the isolated part from the drill and then put it in an isolated sparring setting.

Put gloves on and ask a guy to try and hit you from chi dan position with full intent and perhaps half force etc... that would then lend to Ronins call about having practical application towards a real situation.....well, closer than the drill anyway.

Ive found 6oz fingerless can help for this platform of training.

DREW

[bennyvt]

wasnt the thing with helio with a Kosun judo guy. He has videos out saying, watch the man that beat helio in 1951. That was were the kimura came into BJJ as helio got his arm broken.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Or maybe it's hard to find the WC "look" in a real fight because the "look" only predominates against other WC that expects every fight or spar to emphasize arm-to-arm contact as part of basically every exchange - and that it be done from very close range.

Without a somewhat different "look" at any range other than very close quarters (and sometimes even including close quarters against a good hook and uppercut puncher whose arms won't engage before hitting a target) - WC has problems...

hence a "more-of-a-boxing-look" (or a kickboxing look) is always the criticism when watching a WC fight or a realistic spar against a skilled opponent or partner.

WC is basically a one dimensional art, and until people fully understand that, the art is going nowhere in 2008 and beyond, imo.

[chusauli]

These are secrets:

- Not banging your forearm with a kettlebell when you snatch or clean
- Walking into an oncoming punch or kick to deliver your own
- timing a strike
- optimally using your structure to issue power
- flowing from one submission base to another
- sliding your knives up and down a long pole
- alter your stance to have balance
- properly manipulating a pole with your whole body and not just your arms
- ignoring your students' gossip/criticism
- punching a wall bag without hooks on the wall
- not gassing out after 3 minutes of all out attack on airshields
- striking focus mitts with power in either hand
- the discipline to train daily
- many more...

...but these all come out in regular, proper training.

The ancients were right when they referred to Yat Daam (1st Courage), Yee Lik (2nd Power), Saam Gung Fu (3rd Attainment). I can't give you courage, its something you need to push things through; I can't give you power - you need to develop it properly by doing your work and finding that momentum and proper use of the body; I can show you my attainment, but you have to have your own atttainment - find it in yourself to move well and follow the guiding principles.

In forums, you can only talk about them, but in your school you can develop them.

[TenTigers]

The ancients were right when they referred to Yat Daam (1st Courage), Yee Lik (2nd Power), Saam Gung Fu (3rd Attainment). I can't give you courage, its something you need to push things through; I can't give you power - you need to develop it properly by doing your work and finding that momentum and proper use of the body; I can show you my attainment, but you have to have your own atttainment - find it in yourself to move well and follow the guiding principles.

That's golden.

With your permission, I would like to have that printed up and placed on my wall in my Kwoon.

(That would make a terrific poster-you should market it!)

[Ali. R]

Or maybe it's hard to find the WC "look" in a real fight because the "look" only predominates against other WC that expects every fight or spar to emphasize arm-to-arm contact as part of basically every exchange - and that it be done from very close range.

Structure is one of the main arteries that intertwine within the body of wing chun, it’s structure that gives the system it’s identity…

If one lose structure, he lose the heartbeat of the system…


Ali Rahim.

[chusauli]

That's golden.

With your permission, I would like to have that printed up and placed on my wall in my Kwoon.

(That would make a terrific poster-you should market it!)

Sure, go right ahead!

Many thanks!

[Knifefighter]

- sliding your knives up and down a long pole
- properly manipulating a pole with your whole body and not just your arms
-.

You can train all you want with your poles, but if you never fight full contact with them you will never be able to fight with them at all.