Do you Know where it is?

[Gru Bianca]

and sorry gru, but if you look close, its in there......i just am not able to tell you how.[/QUOTE]

I must be mistaken then cause I was under the impression that in 漢 below the 中is the character 夫.

Regards

[TenTigers]

the two han ji are connected. It's just a little creative license, but things like that are done all the time.

[once ronin]

They ho kit or poem that goes with my loi baat moon in Hop Ga has all Hung Moon phrases.

The positions on the ground equals 15 all the way around.

[CFT]

[2] The word Hong (洪) is the evolution of the word Han (漢). By taking out the two radicals of Zhong (中) and Tu (土) from the middle of Han (漢), the new word which ultimately becomes Hong (洪). That means the Han People had lost their land (Zhong Tu 中土) and they must organize themselves under the banner of Hong (洪) to gain back their land (中土), that is against the Qing Government (清朝), Fan Qing Fu Ming (反清復明) or Oppose the Qing and Recover the Ming. Hong Wu (洪武) was the name of the era during the reign of Emperor Tai Zu Zhu Yuanzhang (太祖皇帝朱元璋 1368AD to 1398AD), the first Emperor of Ming Dynasty (明朝 1368AD to 1644AD).

Seems analogous to numerology to me. The original post suggests that is the case.

洪 is a phono-semantic compound (形聲字) of the water radical and the phonetic indicator 共 (gung). The water radical gives the meaning of vast/immense/flood/deluge, and the phonetic indicator shows how to pronounce it (gung -> hung).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese...ntic_compounds

I think the case for the Hung character to be an evolution of the Han character is highly unlikely.

1) The Han peoples lost their empire when the Song dynasty fell to the Yuan (Mongols).
2) Han rule returned when the Ming dynasty was formed after the Mongols were defeated.
3) In turn the Ming fell to the Qing.

Why only "take the Zhong and Tu out of Han" and create "Hung" during Qing occupation when the land had already been lost by a previous dynasty?

Most importantly, does one really think that the Chinese had no character for vast/immense/flood/deluge prior to this dynasty? The great emperor Yu (大禹) was fighting the flood waters in the 21st century BC!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great

[hskwarrior]

ok thanks for that.

however, I'm not a Han, nor than effin old to know if it is likely or unlikely.

if you do, great.

still, it is what it is.

but you are the only one disputing that.

[CFT]

ok thanks for that.

however, I'm not a Han, nor than effin old to know if it is likely or unlikely.

if you do, great.

still, it is what it is.

but you are the only one disputing that.

You seem a bit touchy Frank. The post you quoted from is someone's pet theory unsupported by literature. If internal Hung Mun documents can show that then fine, you would have a case.

I'm not a linguistics or history scholar but I'm pretty certain that the character for "Hung" (flood) is more than 360 years old. I'll get back to you.

[hskwarrior]

How do you know it's their pet theory?

Me touchy, nah, just outspoken.

What is your background (idk it so i ask)? What are your credentials to dispute whether or not that the characters are as the statement said?

I could care less what characters are used, how they got them, or what ever.

What i do care about is this..........the san francisco hung mun ghee kung tong is a product of the green grass monk. This lodge was established in sf in 1849. My gung fu family has been with the green grass monk since 1841 (167 years).

[hskwarrior]

How do you know it's their pet theory?

Me touchy, nah, just outspoken.

What is your background (idk it so i ask)? What are your credentials to dispute whether or not that the characters are as the statement said?

I could care less what characters are used, how they got them, or what ever.

What i do care about is this..........the san francisco hung mun ghee kung tong is a product of the green grass monk. This lodge was established in sf in 1849. My gung fu family has been with the green grass monk since 1841 (167 years).

As well, there are hung mun websites that also claim the same stuff.

So, i'm not up to believing you right off the bat.

[CFT]

You are still very defensive! I'm not in any CLF family so no need to think this is an attack against your Hung Sing group or your local Hung Mun.

My skepticism hinged around the word "evolved". I've been informed that the author of that text is more fluent in Chinese than English, so it seems that one can "explain" the choice of the character "Hung" by the revolutionary societies by the theory put forward by the author. Maybe it is more than theory. If the Hung Mun oral tradition describes this then fine.

The extract you posted just made it seem like the "normal/every day" character for "Hung" (i.e. a change to the language) was derived in response to the Qing occupation of China. But really it is like an organisation choosing their logo or motto.

I'm informed that the character has been around since at least the Shuowen Jiezi which was compiled in 100 AD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuowen_Jiezi

[TenTigers]

I think the case for the Hung character to be an evolution of the Han character is highly unlikely.

1) The Han peoples lost their empire when the Song dynasty fell to the Yuan (Mongols).
2) Han rule returned when the Ming dynasty was formed after the Mongols were defeated.
3) In turn the Ming fell to the Qing.

Why only "take the Zhong and Tu out of Han" and create "Hung" during Qing occupation when the land had already been lost by a previous dynasty?

]

Many Southern Chinese still refer to themselves as Han Yan (Han People) in fact, some still call Manderins,'Chings.'

[hskwarrior]

well thats all find and dandy. However, I could care less how the word "evolved"

There is more out there on the internet that is hung mun related that also say the same thing. one specific one actually shows the section being taken out. if i can find it, maybe you can dispute it with them.

who cares how a word is evolved? It's not up for me to dispute that, i'm not chinese.

[CFT]

well thats all find and dandy. However, I could care less how the word "evolved"

There is more out there on the internet that is hung mun related that also say the same thing. one specific one actually shows the section being taken out. if i can find it, maybe you can dispute it with them.

who cares how a word is evolved? It's not up for me to dispute that, i'm not chinese.

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. The character "Hung" did not come about because the Hung Mun invented it - that is all.

I'm about as interested in Hung Mun and Hung Sing as you are in the evolution of the Chinese language.

Actually I take that back, you are interested if it helps to support your position on the link between HSG and Hung Mun. I'm just saying there is no linguistic importance to Hung Mun choosing that particular character.

[hskwarrior]

OMG,

I really am trying to see where you are coming from, but WHOEVER claimed that "Hung" from the Hung Mun was evolved from the word Han......thats up for THEM to prove. I know i didn't. i just posted it cause i thought it was an interesting concept.

sorry for all the misunderstandings.

[CFT]

Fair enough.

[jdhowland]

Here's a possible connection to Hung tradition: our first Hop Ga set begins with a triple salute (Buddhist palm style) to the left, right and front. Heaven-earth-man? Or it could merely reflect seating galleries in the mogun where it was developed. My teacher is Hung Mun and opening hands are frequently full of symbolic gestures so I tend to think that it's a Hung device.

Our Tibetan White Crane has a couple of sets in which the index finger points to the sky. If this is a Hung signal I'd like to learn more about it.

Good idea for a thread!

jd