Miao Dao

[Thomas Chen]

Also check out this picture of an antique Qing Dynasty Chinese Imperial 2-handed saber with trimmings of gold on the intricate fittings. Wouldn't it be COOL to use this for Miao Dao practice ??......

[neit]

excellent post.

[taichi4eva]

I was wondering if anyone practices Miao Dao, particularly of the Han-Ching-Tan lineage. Can anyone provide a description of the form? Is there any Japanese influence?

I was wondering if anyone has purchased Scott Rodell's DVD- International Tai Chi Festival. The Miao Dao is featured in it. Any opinions would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[count]

Probably from Muslim roots. Not Japanese. But than, Hans Longfist was from Muslim roots too. It's a mainstay weapon from Hsing-I too. I learned a very short form but most of the training was the basic cuts and body method. One main difference I see between Japanese sword styles compared with Chinese sword styles, is you will never draw your sword back before cutting.

[WanderingMonk]

Its roots are japanese, General Qi manual state it clearly. don't ask me to quote it. It was a while back when I was looking for this type of info. The chinese did modify to suit our taste but the original techniques were "extracted" from the Japanese pirates raiding the chinese coast by Qi's soldiers.

someone on this forum does have the miao dao form from GM Han's line. Whether or not he will post it depends whether or not he see your post and feel up to it.

[Robert Young]

> I was wondering if anyone practices Miao Dao, particularly of the Han-Ching-Tan
> lineage. Can anyone provide a description of the form? Is there any Japanese
> influence?

The Miao Dao from LF through GM Han was from Nan Jin Guo Shu Guan where GM Han was the first year students there. Miao Doa was not popular in Chinese civilian martial arts world. It was mainly from the military side in dynasty time and mainly for. Some master in NJ Institute taught Miao Dao to the public. That was how LF got it Miao Dao.

As far as I know, GM Han had never taught Miao Dao one man form, but he did taught two man Miao Dao sparring form. But, there are two Miao Dao forms that were taught in NJ Guo Shu Guan.

Personally, I don't think our Miao Dao has any Japanese influence as how it is used. The weapon itself may be influence from Japan, but who knows. Even it was from Japanese originally, Chinese would have changed it. There are some moves that we do in our two man Miao Dao do not exist in Japanese Katana.

Cheers,

[Chow Farn]

Recently the 'Miao Dao' has caught my eye.
I have done Korean sword arts (Haedong Gumdo & Kumdo/Kendo) for over 8 years.
The design of the sword looks close (but size looks longer).

So I was wondering what they had in common etc.

I'm just interested in hearing from people who have trained in the form/style.

[YouKnowWho]

The Miao Dao was created during the Ming dynasty when Japanese pirates invaded Chinese coast line. It was an identical copy of the Japanese Samurai sword but much longer, wider, and heavier. During that time, the Miao Dao did scare Japanese pirates quite a bit because the much longer reach. It was like Chinese tried to tell Japanese, "You call your Samurai sword a sword? I'll show you what a real Samurai sword suppose to look like."

The design of Maio Dao has more psychology effect than physical effect. IMO, the spear is much longer. Just because Japanese did respect Samurai sword, they must respect giant size Samurai sword by default.

The main strategy for Maio Diao is to build a bridge (sword touch sword) and then remain contact and slide in.

[mawali]

The samurai sword techniques were taken from a Chinese long sword of the period but the Japanese, as usual, used that single sword form to make it a historical while the 1001 dao forms ended up as just pantomine or circus.

I am not saying they (Chinese forms are excessive) are useless but that the Japanese utilized a single form and improved it to match the weapon length.
I will try to find the source!

[jdhowland]

Miao dao training is interesting because of the weapon's limitations. As YKW suggested, it is dangerous to disengage for a cut because it is such a heavy weapon. Hard to overcome that kind of inertia. That same quality makes it good for studying strategic positioning and learning how to use the sword's curvature for defense.

We practice a form that is associated with Wu Tan and possibly derives from a military tradition. I have heard that captured Japanese were made to fight with their tachi in order to force them to reveal their techniques to the chinese imperial guardsmen, with little success.

Centuries ago, japanese soldiers also had a type of o-dachi that was as long or longer than the miao dao. This period of giantism in japanese weapons is associated with a decadence in standards of training. Send a lot more bodies onto the field carrying big chunks of steel and they might be able to beat a smaller force of highly skilled experts.

Good luck in your efforts.

jd

[Three Harmonies]

The Miao Dao Wutan plays is the same as John Wangs, just a different flavor in usage.

They way it is played in Tong Bei / Pi Qua circles negates what you all say in terms of short range, inertia etc. Continuously flowing technique, coupled with full body usage/power makes it a very unique weapon indeed!

Cheers
Jake

[Eddie]

I learned a miao doa form from Wong Guan Quan, and it was pretty cool form, but the saber is heavy and uncomfortable to use.

Later, I learned a similar form from Sifu Chow Keung (TaiSing pek Gwa) which has similar movements, but we use a shorter double hand saber. The story he told me was that this sword was used to kill the Japanese, as it is used in a similar way as the Japanese sabers, but its lighter and easier to handle. We simply call it double hand saber and use a sword that looks like a pok dao, only with a shorter handle.

Can post a video later

[Mr Punch]

Interesting history there people, thanks.

I have two questions:

1) The 'original' Japanese samurai swords in the 8th century, according to many sources, were based on what...? I've seen references to their being made based on Chinese folding techniques imported as early as the 2nd C AD... but I've also seen references to their having been direct copies of a Chinese style of sword. So which is it?

2) If it was a direct copy, did the Chinese version fall out of use? I can only assume that it had to have done, since the Chinese later 'copied' and enlarged the (by then 60-ish cm) blades of the wako (wukou)... they wouldn't have needed to had their own versions still been in use (the o-dachi had been out of regular use for a couple of hundred years at least by the time the Japanese pirates came along).

[Three Harmonies]

Good questions! Not sure. I know very little about the history of the weapon.

On a similar note....
Would there be much interest out there if I hosted Mike Martello for a weekend of Miao Dao work sometime? We have talked about it for his annual visit to Seattle, but I was unsure of how many people would want to work it?

Good topic guys!
Jake

[jdhowland]

Interesting history there people, thanks.

I have two questions:

1) The 'original' Japanese samurai swords in the 8th century, according to many sources, were based on what...? I've seen references to their being made based on Chinese folding techniques imported as early as the 2nd C AD... but I've also seen references to their having been direct copies of a Chinese style of sword. So which is it?

2) If it was a direct copy, did the Chinese version fall out of use? I can only assume that it had to have done, since the Chinese later 'copied' and enlarged the (by then 60-ish cm) blades of the wako (wukou)... they wouldn't have needed to had their own versions still been in use (the o-dachi had been out of regular use for a couple of hundred years at least by the time the Japanese pirates came along).

Good questions there, Mr Punch. I think the best sources we have are still educated guesses. Here are a few ideas to consider:

Donn Draeger's researches indicated that the Japanese blade derives from a straight bladed mainland original type. The Chinese eventually settled on a format with two sharpened edges although many earlier straight swords had single cutting edges. The curvature comes from differential expansion and contraction of thick and thin portions of the blade during working, annealing and quenching. It was soon discovered that a curved blade cuts better than a straight one and is less susceptible to breaking. For some reason, the Japanese chose to do without shields, allowing them a stronger two-handed technique which affected the morphology of their swords; for example the tsuka became longer and the tsuba developed differently from mainland Asian samples, being not a hand guard but a weight designed to bring the weapon's center of mass closer to the hands. Evolution from a straight sword is somewhat supported by the fact that the Japanese use the kanji for both ken/gim/jian and to/dou/dao in reference to their swords. The most typical Tibetan swords are also of a single cutting edge type and either straight or only slightly curved and Tibetan culture is known for its conservatism in artefact types.

As for the obsolescense of the o-dachi, it may well have seen some use during the Qing. Even though the katana became increasingly popular during Tokugawa times and later, many bushi may have simply chosen to wear the o-dachi upside down to reflect the new style. There are koryu systems today that still use the o-dachi, or in some cases, use a more modern blade but still call it o-dachi.

Personally, I see "typical" Japanese and Chinese swords as being part of a continuum with many atypical and transitional types between them, both on the islands and on the continent. What is really different is how they were used. The physics are the same, the cultural demands quite different.

Be well.

jd