Shaolin Temple Myths

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Before any of you go any further about the Shaolin Temple, it's 5 ancestors who survived a fire, the styles taught there, etc., etc., I would all suggest that you read this book:

Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals
by Brain Kennedy and Elizabeth Gou

It is a very interesting read, and it chronicles Kung-Fu History from over 2,000 martial arts manuals that were passed down through generations of families -to a private collector in Taiwan.

The two authors, bring to light that the whole story of the Shaolin Temple, the one with the ancestors escaping and all the martial arts taught there, HAD NEVER BEEN MENTIONED BEFORE 1910 (I believe that is the date, or 1912).

Many historians at the time debunked this new story, but for some reason it stuck and got into movies and the rest is history (pun intended)

They site actual Shaolin manuals going back to the 1600 (and more current) that say that the temple only taught staff fighting.

The other side of this is that many rebels fleeing the government sought sanctuary in the temple and BROUGHT their martial arts in - they didn't originate there.

So if this is true, styles like Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, etc, don't really have origins in the Shaolin temple. That is not to say that they weren't refined, collaborated on and practiced there, possibly just that they temple is and was not all that everyone think it was.

An interesting read nonetheless. Sifu Ross recommended it to me several years ago and I've since turned many people on to it. I hope some of you read it.

The reason I'm posting this is because there are so many history arguments on here. Fact is, these manuals, these old family manuals tell a lot more accurate history than some of the current schools, websites and books.

Not looking to ruffle anyone feathers, just sharing some info that I have read.

[Sifu at Large]

I second the above. I bought this one about two months ago, and any self respecting Chinese martial arts practitioner should own and read this book.

[Mano Mano]

I came across some info a while back on the swordforum about how one of the famous generals of the Ming dynasty who fought against the Japanese pirates. When the general went to the temple he found martial arts being taught there however the empty hand martial arts there were the same styles that were being taught outside the temple & the Shaolin staff techniques didn’t impress him, I think he even taught & reintroduced staff fighting to the temple.

[lkfmdc]

This book is ESSENTIAL reading for anyone doing CMA. IT is excellent history and also refutes so much of the crap plaguing the arts

[sanjuro_ronin]

This one and the one " The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar".

[SimonM]

What surprises me is that people still believe histories that center Chinese martial arts at Shaolin.

(I am refering both to "Shaolin is birthplace of MA" and "India / Greece is birthplace of MA, Bodidharma brought MA to China which previously had none")

It's just not good anthropology.

People learned how to punch, kick, wrestle, stab, shoot and throw everywhere long before civilization developed. There is no one birthplace of Martial Arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What surprises me is that people still believe histories that center Chinese martial arts at Shaolin.

(I am refering both to "Shaolin is birthplace of MA" and "India / Greece is birthplace of MA, Bodidharma brought MA to China which previously had none")

It's just not good anthropology.

People learned how to punch, kick, wrestle, stab, shoot and throw everywhere long before civilization developed. There is no one birthplace of Martial Arts.

Correct, certainly one culture or country can pick up a few things from another that may be more "refined" in certain methods, or by seeing stuff on the battlefield, but the chances of a country having ZERO prior MA is almost zero.

[SimonM]

I personally despise the "greece is the origin of all martial arts and they were spread through the Alexandrias in the wake of Alexander the Great" story as being so despicably euro-centric that it sets off my skepticky senses to near fatal levels.

That being said, Greece had some pretty good martial arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I personally despise the "greece is the origin of all martial arts and they were spread through the Alexandrias in the wake of Alexander the Great" story as being so despicably euro-centric that it sets off my skepticky senses to near fatal levels.

That being said, Greece had some pretty good martial arts.

If we wanna be "historically logical", I guess it was either the Egyptians or the Babylonians that started MA.

[hskwarrior]

THE GHEE KUNG TONG WHICH IS THE GREEN GRASS MONK'S TONG IS NOT A MYTH. THE GREEN GRASS MONK'S LODGE IS FOUND IN MALAYSIA, BURMA, CANADA, PHILADELPHIA and SAN FRANCISCO.

I AGREE THAT WITHIN GUNG FU, THINGS DON'T APPEAR TO GOOD. BUT IF YOU LOOKED OUTSIDE OF GUNG FU, SOME OF THE ANSWERS CAN BE FOUND.

The other side of this is that many rebels fleeing the government sought sanctuary in the temple and BROUGHT their martial arts in - they didn't originate there.....I AGREE WITH THAT. THERE WERE STYLES EXISTING BEFORE SHAOLIN, AND SHAOLIN IS NOT THE BIRTHPLACE OF GUNG FU. THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE ALSO ADMITS TO THIS. BUT FOR SOME REASON THEY KEEP CLAIMING GUNG FU STARTED WITH SHAOLIN.

HOWEVER, THE HUNG MUN IS NO MYTH. AND MY SCHOOL STEMS FROM THE HUNG MUN.

[SimonM]

I accept the out of africa hypothesis of the evolution of modern **** sapiens as the most likely one.

I deny the idea that there is a single initiatory point for civilization... though certainly the ones in the near east and south asia are among the oldest there are indications of ancient civilization that may be independent of Babylonian settlement as far west as eastern europe and as far east as the banks of the Yellow River... and that's not even considering the mesoamerican civilizations.

And hskW: why all the caps? Nobody MENTIONED the Green Grass Monk. We just said that we deny the suggestion that Shaolin was the origin point of CMA - not every single style within it!

[hskwarrior]

What does this book say about the 5 ancestors? I'm interested in hearing what they have to say.

Some stuff may be myths, however, since i've been researching the 5 ancestors, there is enough information about these people coming from "non martial arts" pieces of writing.

As someone who likes to research the history of martial arts, i'm interested in seeing what this book has to say....is it still in print?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What does this book say about the 5 ancestors? I'm interested in hearing what they have to say.

Some stuff may be myths, however, since i've been researching the 5 ancestors, there is enough information about these people coming from "non martial arts" pieces of writing.

As someone who likes to research the history of martial arts, i'm interested in seeing what this book has to say....is it still in print?

Its on amazon I think.

[lkfmdc]

Has Frank not been taking his special pills? Did this post have anything to do with the "green grass monk"? Uh, NO

[PM]

the book is very good, however, the info is not correct. check out the book by Dian Murray, The Origins of the Tiandihui: The Chinese Triads in Legend and History. it contains translation of all the text about so called "Xi Lu legend", mentioning the burning of (Southern) Shaolin temple - warrior monks helping the goverment, treachery, burning of the temple, 5 ancestors of the Triads. the oldest text is from 1811 - 1811, ok? as for the Northern Shaolin Monastery and its connection to martial arts, the sources are much much older.

however, no Jisin sim si, Ng Mui, Fung Doudak, Baak Mei, Miu Hin there. the oldest text mentioning these (and Hung Heigun, Wu Waikin, Fong Saiyuk etc. for example) is Wan Nian Qing, a novel from 1890's.