Shaolin Temple Myths

[hskwarrior]

sorry, mike mentioned the 5 ancestors......so immediately that caught my attention.

and ross, must you ALWAYS come on like a chump? i don't take pills, i shmoke ching cho bruthah! --~~~~~~

and Ching Cho who IS one of the 5 ancestors, was an abbott at the Shaolin temple. so yeah, i was wondering what that book may have said.

but i trust in my other sources.

[hskwarrior]

PM,

thanks, there are some great books on the hung mun. one of the most detailed but hard to read is from schlegal.

[hskwarrior]

SIMON,

sorry, its faster for me when i use all caps or lower case, or my eyes are going bad......omg where is me specticles?

Sorry, as i said, mike mentioned the 5 ancestors........

[PM]

the book by Gustaaf Schlegel is ihmo kind of outdated. there are much better books today on Hung Mun, like the one i have recomended above, or
The Ritual and Mythology of the Chinese Triads: Creating an Identity

however, what i mean: the connection of Northern/Southern Shaolin Temples to martial arts is confirmed by numerous old sources (reliable or not is other question), but definitely at least 100 years older than 1911. the book by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo is very good, it uncover many myths surrounding TCMA, but it also has a lot of info that is not accurate or true.

[lkfmdc]

Frank, I know that it escapes you how ridiculous you come off, so I'll just forgive your ignorance. But for those who have actual academic training you coming on here and quoting Wu Hsin as historical evidence is pretty darn funny! It's like citing a superman comic for NYC history

Jean Chesneaux was the first academic examination of secret society history and literature, and while he found plenty of Shaolin references he did not find any that could be dated much before the turn of the century

[lkfmdc]

the connection of Northern/Southern Shaolin Temple FICTION to martial arts is confirmed

fixed that for you. There is no question that most martial arts in China CLAIM some connection to Shaolin, there is little reliable evidence confirming the ties. When China first started looking, they couldn't trace most of the systems back more than a few generations.

[hskwarrior]

ok so what, ross, go suck an egg.

[lkfmdc]

ok so what, ross, go suck an egg.

Spoken truely by someone who is barely literate in their own language

[lkfmdc]

I'll drop one on the amateur historians now.....

Finding a secret society or brotherhood source that speaks of the temple, of a monk, etc is NOT reliable. You can only confirm that they used that FICTION as far back as that time.

China, being what it was, and what is has gone through in the 20th century (and before) leaves many a land mine for the amateur historian. Short of an actual Bao Jia record, most Chinese historians would say a source is only reliable when it is (1) proven neutral or (2) confirmed by other sources in context or (3) a combination of the two

[SimonM]

Were we just invaded by CLF lineage wars?

(I have managed to keep blissfully out of lineage issues for a good long time by just not caring. Sure Wong Fei Hong may have rocked the Hung Gar world way back when but what has he done lately?)

[lkfmdc]

Ever read Esherick's "The Origins of the Boxer Uprising"?

Great book if you want to see the function of martial arts in rebellions and within the conext of traditional Chinese society. Unfortunately, if you aren't a trained historian it can be quite a book to get through.

There is at least one imperial court document which states "the Mei Hua boxing which originated at Shaolin"... wow! Seems like a find doesn't it? Except that the official reporting this is only relaying what HE HEARD THE BOXERS SAYING

A deeper dig into the issue and you find out their teacher wasn't at all related to Shaolin, but his ignorant, poorly educated followers either attached this affiliation or he fed it to them

[SimonM]

You know what really bugs me about Shaolin Temple?

It really was the birthplace of something important. If not for the monks of Shaolin (in a lineage that can be more reliably traced back to Damo - though not entirely ) we wouldn't have Ch'an.

And yet it just gets talked about for kung fu!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know what really bugs me about Shaolin Temple?

It really was the birthplace of something important. If not for the monks of Shaolin (in a lineage that can be more reliably traced back to Damo) we wouldn't have Ch'an.

And yet it just gets talked about for kung fu!

Only on TCMA forums and LARPers forums.

[SimonM]

Enough people swing boffers to have whole forums?

And they talk about Shaolinsi?

[PM]

fixed that for you. There is no question that most martial arts in China CLAIM some connection to Shaolin, there is little reliable evidence confirming the ties. When China first started looking, they couldn't trace most of the systems back more than a few generations.

no need to fix what i wrote :-) i can read and write a bit English, if you do not mind. as seen above, i have questioned the reliability of the written material, especialy as far as Southern Shaolin temple concerns, but as for the Northern Temple, we have much more reliable sources that i would not call fiction at all. please read the book by Meir Shahar recommended above.

i am in no way fan of "all martial arts under heaven come from Shaolin monastery" theory". i just claim (and have posted evidence of my claims) that both temples were connected to martial arts in sources much older than 1911 - ok? the book on Triads by Dian H. Murray has eg. 7 different texts.