Forget the History, Forget the Politics

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wing Chun kung fu is going to become little more than a footnote in the annals of martial arts if it doesn't get past the obsession many people have with history, lineage, politics, families, wing chun "concepts" somehow making wing chun a superior art, etc...

and get down to the basics:

Is your martial art training (and wing chun training in particular) developing you into an efficient fighter, if you ever have to fight?

Or if you choose to spar or compete with other people?

Or if you choose to pass it on by teaching others, will you be capable of passing on fight efficiency to your students?

Are you being realistic in the training methods? Strengthening? Conditioning? Cardio? Mental focus? Breathing technique and efficiency under stress? Street awareness?

Are you paying attention to the kinds of fighting principles, strategies, and techniques that many other people are using these days?

Mixtures of boxing, kickboxing, Thai boxing, BJJ, wrestling, sambo, judo, san da, etc. ???

Because if your main concern focuses around wing chun history (or supposed history), the politics of lineage, ranks, and positions within and amoung families...

you're contributing to the footnote syndrome I alluded to earlier.


Comments?

[Almost A Ghost]

Wing Chun kung fu is going to become little more than a footnote in the annals of martial arts

That has more do with the system itself than the bickering or infighting over lineage. Don't get me wrong, I love Wing Chun, but it's not marketable, it's not flashy, and because of that the general public won't pay attention. You want to know something? That's fine with me, because look what happened to TKD.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That has more do with the system itself than the bickering or infighting over lineage. Don't get me wrong, I love Wing Chun, but it's not marketable, it's not flashy, and because of that the general public won't pay attention. You want to know something? That's fine with me, because look what happened to TKD.

Boxing is not flashy, neither is judo and certainly not BJJ.
Yet...

Fact is, if someone came on the scene with WC skills and started putting the kaibosh on people it would get everyone's attention.

[golgo]

I very new to WC (TWC). A month or so ago I was on the Bullshido forums trying to figure out what martial art to try. I was amazed at how much bashing there was in relation to Wing Chun - both internally (lineage vs. lineage) and externally (mma vs. Wing Chun). I quickly left due to the overall negative "feel" of those forums. More people there to bash than to help.

Still that did not deter me from trying Wing Chun. So far I love it. My Sifu does not bash the different lineages and hasn't really mentioned lineages since my "intro" day. My Sifu has trained in a bunch of MA in his past, so maybe this makes him more open minded. I dont know.

Before I started in WC, I had a friend at work who trains in some form of Mantis take a look at the school I was planning on attending. He told me to beware of the lineage wars. Knowing beforehand that they existed, I have pretty much tried to avoid paying real attention to them.

Besides, I don't know enough about my own lineage to make any argument one way or the other. I just try and stay out of the way. I am just happy to be training in a MA that I am enjoying.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I very new to WC (TWC). A month or so ago I was on the Bullshido forums trying to figure out what martial art to try. I was amazed at how much bashing there was in relation to Wing Chun - both internally (lineage vs. lineage) and externally (mma vs. Wing Chun). I quickly left due to the overall negative "feel" of those forums. More people there to bash than to help.

Still that did not deter me from trying Wing Chun. So far I love it. My Sifu does not bash the different lineages and hasn't really mentioned lineages since my "intro" day. My Sifu has trained in a bunch of MA in his past, so maybe this makes him more open minded. I dont know.

Before I started in WC, I had a friend at work who trains in some form of Mantis take a look at the school I was planning on attending. He told me to beware of the lineage wars. Knowing beforehand that they existed, I have pretty much tried to avoid paying real attention to them.

Besides, I don't know enough about my own lineage to make any argument one way or the other. I just try and stay out of the way. I am just happy to be training in a MA that I am enjoying.

Out of curiosity, if you saw so much WC bashing, why did you decide on WC after all?

[Wu Wei Wu]

There is a lack of extrinsic evidence that Wing Chun works.

Many other arts have verifiable means by which to assess their effectiveness, such as boxing, judo, BJJ etc.

Irrespective of functional modes of training, the downfall of Wing Chun will be the failure of Wing Chun men to;

a) pressure test;
b) adapt; and
c) evolve.

The assessment as to whether history or politics has any bearing on an individuals ability to use Wing Chun should be based on one question;

How does it improve me as a fighter?

[CFT]

This bickering isn't unique to Wing Chun, nor TCMA either.

[golgo]

Out of curiosity, if you saw so much WC bashing, why did you decide on WC after all?

OK, get ready for a long winded response:
I guess it was a number of things.

A) I am attracted to Kung Fu styles

B) I wasn't really picking a style per-se, but picking a school. Out of the schools in my immediate area there were 3 that seemed to be mainly geared towards adults - Krav Maga, Bujinkan (sp?) ninjitsu, and WC. After reading about the WC school, there were many aspects that drew me in:

The training methods seemed to be flexible and varied. If you wanted to do MMA style training (through a WC filter) they had that, if you wanted grappling classes they had that, if you wanted to mainly stick to low-contact you could do that, if you wanted to do full-contact sparring they had that too. I liked the fact that the school seemed very flexible to personal goals. I am personally very unsure of myself and did not want a place where i would have to be thrown into full-contact sparring right away. I haven't been in a fight in about 15 years, and therefore am not in any hurry to get in the ring. But I like the fact that if I changed my mind, those options were there. The ninjitsu school had some philosophy that was like "we don't spar so no one gets horribly maimed or killed." Ok.

Lastly, from what I had read and heard, the Sifu at the school a) was very well respected in the WC community (or at least TWC), b) seemed to have a reputation as a very capable fighter, c) he had trained in what seemed to be a dozen different MA and d) I just liked the guy when we met. I thought to myself "I want to train with this guy."

So far I have not regretted that decision.

The fact that it was WC or TWC played very little in the decision making process. I knew that I didnt want to do BJJ or any style that involves grappling. Not that I dont think it is important or valuable. I just prefer striking styles.

[golgo]

This bickering isn't unique to Wing Chun, nor TCMA either.

As was evident in those threads that were deleted earlier this week

[sanjuro_ronin]

A) I am attracted to Kung Fu styles

Pervert.

B) I wasn't really picking a style per-se, but picking a school. Out of the schools in my immediate area there were 3 that seemed to be mainly geared towards adults - Krav Maga, Bujinkan (sp?) ninjitsu, and WC.

Hmmm, given the choices...

The training methods seemed to be flexible and varied. If you wanted to do MMA style training (through a WC filter) they had that, if you wanted grappling classes they had that, if you wanted to mainly stick to low-contact you could do that, if you wanted to do full-contact sparring they had that too. I liked the fact that the school seemed very flexible to personal goals.

Sounds great to me.

The fact that it was WC or TWC played very little in the decision making process. I knew that I didnt want to do BJJ or any style that involves grappling. Not that I dont think it is important or valuable. I just prefer striking styles.

All the more reason to, eventually, do grappling by the way.

[golgo]

All the more reason to, eventually, do grappling by the way.

You are probably right. Who knows... right now I am just focusing on the basics though.

[sihing]

You are probably right. Who knows... right now I am just focusing on the basics though.

Dude, if it feels right for you, then it is right, period. People here have a tendency to want others to follow their way, the problem is the motivations are not the same. If you like to strike and that is your thing, then follow that path. I'm the same way, I like the striking, and haven't grappled since elementary school. It is not that I believe that I don't need grappling or whatever, as like you said there is value to it of course, but I don't want to train it and it's as simple as that. The fact is, we do the things we do based on how much enjoyment we get out of it. None of us here on this forum are fighting hand to hand on a regular basis to defend our lives, so really why is it necessary to be this so called "complete" fighter if one isn't fighting? For comps, yeah you need to be able to strike, takedown and grapple, this is the name of that game, it's an evolving sport and the one with more skills in more areas of combat will have an advantage, but most of us or not all of us are into MA to compete with it.

Regarding politics, lineage and the other things mentioned in this thread, for me I hate the politics, as this all just about agenda's and ego's. Everyone can learn from everyone, as we all have something to teach each other, it is just that one may value things differently than another. There's allot of BS in WC, that is for sure, people think it is like a magic pill, take it once and everything is peachy, only to realize that there is no magic to it at all, but rather it takes hard work, consistency and understanding of what one doing. When it comes to history, I sort of like it as it tells me where something came from, and how the process got to where it is today, but I realize it has nothing to do with how effective I will be at using the training in application. All one can really do is learn what they are being taught, train it hard and then make it your own, as no one can make you an effective Martial Artist, only you can do that for yourself.

James

[Phil Redmond]

Victor you must have been in my head. I was just going to write something similar. Here's the operative word in martial art.
Martial: adjective
Etymology: from Latin martialis of Mars, from Mart-, Mars
Definition:
1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
2 : relating to an army or to military life
3 : experienced in or inclined to war : warlike
I take this definition seriously. I could care less where any Sifu learned his art, whether he made it up. I wouldn't care if someone learned from the back of a cereal box. What important is if it's been presure tested against people outside of your individual system are trying to hurt you. No some say that Wing Chun isn't made for competition. It's made for self defense or that it's too deadly for competitions....lol
Fighting in competitons is the best way legal way to pressure test what you train. It's either that or go out and start fights in the street. Yeah I know that everyone will say they've been in fights. But how many fights does the average person have? 10, 20, 30??? You can train full contact 100s of times and learn your strengths and weaknesses and train stamina without serious injury. I can see why Dale and Terences (sp)? points about resisting opponents. Yeah, I know It'll be the guys that don't fight that will respond that Wing Chun wasn't made from competitions or pressure testing . . . .lol
People who don't want to pressure there art should do something else. It's easy to sit at the keyboard and talk theory, history, theory, and lineage and not risk your a s s testing your art. Go to a boxing gym and work with a boxer. Find someone who does MMA and train with them. Do something real.

[El_Nastro]

I very new to WC (TWC). A month or so ago I was on the Bullshido forums trying to figure out what martial art to try. I was amazed at how much bashing there was in relation to Wing Chun - both internally (lineage vs. lineage) and externally (mma vs. Wing Chun). I quickly left due to the overall negative "feel" of those forums. More people there to bash than to help.

I'm right there with ya. When I first discovered Bullshido, I was excited about it. I liked the idea of a community devoted to debunking fakes and frauds, but it didn't take more than a few minutes to see that amongst the Bullshido-people, frauds & fakes are defined as "anyone who doesn't do muy thai & BJJ & compete in CAGE FIGHTS!"

That site isn't about martial arts at all, it's about MMA. Period. And if you aren't down with the MMA...You. Are. A. F@G. I quickly learned how gay I was for liking Wing Chun.

I mentioned this stuff in a different thread here, and someone was kind enough to point out the "irony of talkin' sh!t about people talkin' sh!t". Yeah...ok, but really...Bullshido is one big "you're-a-f@g"-flamewar and I don't think it's unreasonable on a discussion forum to discuss it.

[Museumtech]

Wing Chun kung fu is going to become little more than a footnote in the annals of martial arts if it doesn't get past the obsession many people have with history, lineage, politics, families, wing chun "concepts" somehow making wing chun a superior art, etc...

Victor,

Good post. Unfortunately it's probably going to require a lot of work and good will. I must say I have noticed this year that the people posting here have, in general, been more supportive than dismissive of each others style than in the past. I am noticing this in other WC forums sites to a degree as well. Moderators from some of the 'linage specific' sites for instance step in and say that this is not the place for politics.

In this information rich climate, reputations can be quickly tarnished. Golgo mentioned the Bullshido web-site. They do participate in a heap of WC bashing there but they operate on a 'show me the proof' basis. And there in lies the rub, as Wu Wei Wu and Phil have pointed out.

Because if your main concern focuses around wing chun history (or supposed history), the politics of lineage, ranks, and positions within and amoung families...

you're contributing to the footnote syndrome I alluded to earlier.

True also Victor.

But forgive the museum professional in me, I want to understand the full Wing Chun picture, understand when techniques originated and why and see how they have evolved and diverged. I am not, however, interested in this so I can say that mine is better than yours, just understand why it is different. Unfortunately these type of forum discussions invariable deteriorate into linage bashing or ****ing contests (can I say that here?) making it very hard to learn. This is a shame as we have a diverse potential of human resources on this forum.

Peter