Wing Chun and Boxing

[Knifefighter]

Oh, and btw-clam...I agree that a large, swinging punch is slower in comparrison to short strikes, which is why a well-trained fighter sets up his strikes, and uses proper angles and range.

A correctly thrown hook punch is faster and generally travels a shorter distance than a straight punch.

[Knifefighter]

Like Sifu Lam once told me, WC is a lazy man's Martial Art, this saying has nothing to do with the effort one is putting into his training, but rather how one uses his training when in combat.

Anyone who has actually fought pretty much knows there is no such thing as being lazy during an altercation. Anyone who tells you that has either never fought or is lying and anyone who believes that has never fought.

[TenTigers]

it's a figure of speech, used to illustrate the fact that WC tries to use the least (wasted) motion, and most direct techniques. Such as,"Others walk the bow, Wing Chun walks the string"

[clam61]

A correctly thrown hook punch is faster and generally travels a shorter distance than a straight punch.

i cant generalize on whether a hook is faster or slower, because it really depends on the person who is throwing the punches to be compared.

however, a hook travels in an arc, and a straight punch travels in a straight line. and the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. thats not my opinion. thats geometry

[TenTigers]

I agree with the geometry. Straight punch is faster than the hook.
But, Tactics change things up a bit, and I think this was what Knifefighter was getting at.
Many fighters throw the hook more from a nose to nose distance, which is too close to generate straight power.
Toe to Toe, Knee to knee, I can generate straight power. Closer, I feel stronger with hooks, uppercuts, forearms, hammerfists and elbows.
I would be interested in other people's experience.

[TenTigers]

try this experiment at home, Boys and Girls!
put on some good headgear and gloves.
Stand nose to nose.
Throw a straight punch to his head.
Then
Have your friend throw a hook into your head.
When you wake up, compare the results.




"oh yeah, TenTigers?
why don't you try it!"

"He11 no.
My mom didn't raise any stupid children!"

[couch]

I agree with the geometry. Straight punch is faster than the hook.
But, Tactics change things up a bit, and I think this was what Knifefighter was getting at.
Many fighters throw the hook more from a nose to nose distance, which is too close to generate straight power.
Toe to Toe, Knee to knee, I can generate straight power. Closer, I feel stronger with hooks, uppercuts, forearms, hammerfists and elbows.
I would be interested in other people's experience.

Yup. Positioning has a lot to do with what you're going to pull off. While it's true that wild John Wayne haymakers are still thrown to this day, most hook punches are tight and very snappy and quick. Oh, and very dangerous.

So, yes...in geometry land a straight beats a 'round' punch, but I would go out on a limb and say that even in geometry land, a straight wouldn't beat a nice, tight hook.

WWW - I agree with you on the boxing thing. In my mind and how my mind's eye interprets boxing - it really seems like the Sweet Science of fighting. I've promised myself that in my next lifetime I would dedicate it to the boxing lifestyle.

[Knifefighter]

There are a variety of hooks in boxing. A properly thrown inside hook does not travel in an arc... the fist travels in a straight line. If your inside hook is being thrown in an arc, you don't know what you are doing.

As far as Dempsey's drop punch, that was more about setting him up to fight out of a crouched stance rather than about generating maximum power. Most of Dempsey's damaging punches came from hooks and uppercuts, where his power generation was actually the opposite of dropping the level.

[TenTigers]

good points, kf.

[t_niehoff]

There are a variety of hooks in boxing. A properly thrown inside hook does not travel in an arc... the fist travels in a straight line. If your inside hook is being thrown in an arc, you don't know what you are doing.

Yes, this is correct. It is fairly common for boxers to use hooks to beat straight punches (very common with unmatched stances). The problem is that many people *talk* boxing but have never gotten good instruction and put in the ring time so they don't really know what they are talking about. What they call "the hook" is more like a "swing".

As far as Dempsey's drop punch, that was more about setting him up to fight out of a crouched stance rather than about generating maximum power. Most of Dempsey's damaging punches came from hooks and uppercuts, where his power generation was actually the opposite of dropping the level.

IMO Dempsey's book is mainly nonsense and only nonboxers give it hype -- mainly because of Bruce's "recommendation". If you compare what Dempsey talks about in his book and contrast that to standard, good boxing instruction (as it exists today), you'll see very little in common. And, if you look at some of Dempsey's fights you'll see that even he does very little (in terms of movement) of what he talks about in his book.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I was shown how one of Wing Chun's hook punches can be extrapolated from the double Lan Sao turning within Chum Kiu. Say you're turning to the left, then your right Lan sao, instead of having an open palm facing down, has a horizontal fist. Voila, a short, sharp, structured hook punch. I've found it to work quite well.

[Knifefighter]

I was shown how one of Wing Chun's hook punches can be extrapolated from the double Lan Sao turning within Chum Kiu. Say you're turning to the left, then your right Lan sao, instead of having an open palm facing down, has a horizontal fist. Voila, a short, sharp, structured hook punch. I've found it to work quite well.

Extrapolating(!!!??? Why not just go and learn an effective technique from someone who actually knows how to do it instead of extrapolating and probably getting it wrong?

[couch]

Extrapolating(!!!??? Why not just go and learn an effective technique from someone who actually knows how to do it instead of extrapolating and probably getting it wrong?

Because some of us look to the SYSTEM/CONCEPTS for answers. Not 'outside.'

[Liddel]

There are a variety of hooks in boxing. A properly thrown inside hook does not travel in an arc... the fist travels in a straight line.

If one uses the form as a blueprint for building on, the same type punch occurs in BJ for me.

The lower Ginger punch at the end of BJ has always been the seed for using hooks in my VT. It uses the twist/turning body and elbow behaviour to be a hook but make the fist travel in a straight line. Its quick and can be very heavy.

By the time i reached BJ i had already realised from regular sparring with VT partners and KBers that i needed this type of action at times.....

No need to look for mechanics from elbows or Lan Sao etc.

A correctly thrown hook punch is faster and generally travels a shorter distance than a straight punch

Faster, sure depending on the person. Shorter, in what dimension hawkings LOL
care to elaborate Dale ?

DREW

[bennyvt]

I thought that was a straight right. I thought the whole point of the hook is to go around a boxers gaurd. ( I only did boxing for a bit so I am probably wrong.)
But as to gary lam about the lazy MA. I am not from his lineage but my teacher said he was one of wong shun leung fighters and had many fights in HK so I dont think its fair to talk about people you dont know. But I have heard of that before, we dont jump around, we wait til the person moves, we use the lest amount of force needed, we dont fail we tend to make our punches count. This was more meaning that the training should be really hard so you dont have to do as much in a fight then VT doesnt do anything. Its like the old "THE MORE YOU SWEAT IN PEACE, THE LEST YOU BLEED IN WAR."