OT: I want my vote back

[Reality_Check]

So are you saying 9/11, the Khobar Towers, the 1st WTC bombing, and the USS Cole bombings never happened?

Again, like him or not, Bush has had ALOT less terrorist attacks on US soil than his predecessor did. Maybe actually doing something about it actually works! What a novel concept.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...postcount=1350

Yup. So 2 attacks in 7 years.

Vs Clintons 3 attacks in 7 years.

How does 1 fewer attack equal "ALOT less"? Is effectiveness judged only by the number of attacks or should the severity of the attacks be counted as well? Wasn't President Bush the President during the worst terrorist attack on American soil?

Finally, why are you only counting terrorist attacks on US soil? Don't the terrorist attacks on US troops in Iraq count?

[BoulderDawg]

There have actually been more attacks on American soil. Bad convieniently forgets the scores of Anthrax letters that were sent out.

In any case, all I know this that almost 3,000 people died in New York under Bush's watch. That is what I'll remember....That and the fact when told about it he sat there and did nothing for 10 minutes.

Bush is responsible for more deaths than any president since the Vietnam war. His "mistake" of WMDs will go down in history as one of the worst. However, afterwards once he found no WMDs his decision to continue the course of action was not only irresponsible but criminal.

[Reality_Check]

In addition, are US consulates considered US soil? If so, there have been attacks on US consulates over the last several years.

June 14, 2002 - Karachi, Pakistan

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/a...karachi.blast/

A previously unknown militant group called "Al-Qanoon" claimed responsibility for a bombing that killed 10 people Friday at the U.S. Consulate in Karachi and warned the attack was just "the beginning."

December 6, 2004 - Jeddah, Saudi Arabia

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2004/39460.htm

This was an attack not just on the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, but on all of us, American, Saudi and other nationalities, as were represented by our Foreign Service Nationals, who work on behalf of dialogue, who work on behalf of understanding, who work on behalf of dealing with the world's problems in a way that stands in marked contrast to the hatred and violence preached by those responsible for this attack.

January 12, 2007 - Athens, Greece

http://www.nysun.com/foreign/blast-a...-called/46604/

Blast at American Embassy in Athens Called 'Terrorism'

Even if you don't count consulates as US territory, the attack on the embassy in Athens would make it 3 to 3. Not exactly "ALOT less".

[1bad65]

USS Cole: Occurred in Yemen, not the US.

A US warship is considered US soil.

In any case, it's all still "Bear Patrol" unless you can point to specific instances of specifically Bush's policies thwarting terrorist attacks on US soil, because otherwise you're basing it entirely on the idea that the frequency of terrorist attacks on US soil is somehow a constant, which it would take a pretty big leap of faith for any thinking person to accept.

That's a retarded statement if there ever was one. Do you really think Al Quaida just decided to leave us alone after 9/11? Look at all the top level guys we've killed or captured. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that has severely hampered their ability to plan and carry out attacks on us.

Do you dismiss prevention in all other areas of life? Does staying in shape really matter? I mean if someone lives a long, healthy life guys like you could dismiss the healthy steps taken and just say the guy had good genetics.

[1bad65]

There have actually been more attacks on American soil. Bad convieniently forgets the scores of Anthrax letters that were sent out.

So you know that those were done by Al Quaida?!?! You better tell the FBI then, as they are still trying to figure out who is responsible.

In any case, all I know this that almost 3,000 people died in New York under Bush's watch. That is what I'll remember....That and the fact when told about it he sat there and did nothing for 10 minutes.

The people behind it admit it was planned during Clinton's watch. Jamie Gorelick's "Wall of Silence" guaranteed they could pull it off.

Are you really attacking Bush for 10 minutes of nothing when Clinton did nothing for years?!?!

Bush is responsible for more deaths than any president since the Vietnam war.

So you're saying he hould have done nothing like Clinton did and just hope it went away? He's been the only one who had to fight a war. You may not like it, but it was approved by the UN and people like Hillary Clinton, who Obama chose as his Secretary of State.

[BoulderDawg]

If I go, it will be obvious I'm either an American or European.

Why not? Aren't you proud to be an American?

Several years ago I was in Paris and I came up on a anti-war demostration...I loved it! I told the organizer that I was American and thought Bush was a war criminal! They loved me!!!!! I have no problem being an American overseas!

[BoulderDawg]

So you know that those were done by Al Quaida?!?! You better tell the FBI then, as they are still trying to figure out who is responsible.

Ah, you fell into your own trap. To start with your original statement did not specify "Al Quaida only" attacks. Finally if your are saying the reason we kill so many many people is because we are at war with "Al Quaida" then why did we attack Iraq? They had nothing to do with "Al Quaida".

I look at any act of violence as a terrorist attack. Bush has killed probably a hundred times more people in his various wars than "Al Quaida" has ever thought about.

Finally, I hope with this new adminstration (although I have my doubts) that we will be able to see AQ for what they truly are today. Mainly they are a small private group with 40 year old guns and ammo who jump over monkey bars in the desert. Even the 9-11 attack was a mickey mouse operation. The suicide bombers were getting drunk in clubs before the attack and bragging what they were going to do. Just like the Kennedy assination, this was just a shoot from the hip thing that happened to work. There was no brillant master plan going on here.

[Reverend Tap]

A US warship is considered US soil.

While that might be true in terms of international law, a president's policies protecting the nation from terrorist attacks within its borders and protecting a ship stationed halfway around the world are two completely different things.

That's a retarded statement if there ever was one. Do you really think Al Quaida just decided to leave us alone after 9/11? Look at all the top level guys we've killed or captured. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that has severely hampered their ability to plan and carry out attacks on us.

Do you dismiss prevention in all other areas of life? Does staying in shape really matter? I mean if someone lives a long, healthy life guys like you could dismiss the healthy steps taken and just say the guy had good genetics.

I do what I can to stay in shape and eat well, but that doesn't mean I can logically go brag about the various cancers I've thwarted. I don't think Al Qaida or anyone else has "given up," but none of us can honestly say whether or not they've been spending the past seven years trying and failing to pull off another 9/11 in the US or whether they've been focusing on other activities (like their massive recruitment and numerous attacks in Iraq).

It all boils down to a very simple logical fallacy you're committing: A implies B, so you're saying not A implies not B, when that isn't necessarily true and is, in the current context, entirely unprovable.

Seriously. If you point me to any actual specific instances of Bush' policies thwarting terrorist attacks within the US, I'll give the guy credit where credit is due.

[bakxierboxer]

Well, at least no one can accuse you of being overly consistent...

We disagree on far more than we agree on, and it is simply not worth even the minimal time and/or effort it would take to pursue this.

You've admitted to being a hypocrit.
'Nuff said!

[1bad65]

Why not? Aren't you proud to be an American?

My point was I look American or European. If asked, I'd say I was from the US. I have no problem with that. I'm not ashamed of my country or President Bush.

[1bad65]

Ah, you fell into your own trap. To start with your original statement did not specify "Al Quaida only" attacks. Finally if your are saying the reason we kill so many many people is because we are at war with "Al Quaida" then why did we attack Iraq? They had nothing to do with "Al Quaida".

You're a moron. How is fighting a war in Iraq related to guys like Tim McVeigh or the Unabomber? We are discussing Islamic terrorism right now, not demestic terrorism. It's apples and oranges.

I look at any act of violence as a terrorist attack. Bush has killed probably a hundred times more people in his various wars than "Al Quaida" has ever thought about.

Any? So you would not use violence to save your own life? Or to stop a rapist? Or to stop say a mall shooter? You really do mean "ANY ACT OF VIOLENCE", right?

Mainly they are a small private group with 40 year old guns and ammo who jump over monkey bars in the desert. Even the 9-11 attack was a mickey mouse operation. The suicide bombers were getting drunk in clubs before the attack and bragging what they were going to do. Just like the Kennedy assination, this was just a shoot from the hip thing that happened to work. There was no brillant master plan going on here.

You truly are the definition of an idiot. Are you this stupid? Honest, you can't believe that can you? A "mickey mouse operation"??? It was very well planned, organized, and executed. The only failure was Flight 93, and that was due to circumstances they could not control. Why do you think the attack was compared to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?

[1bad65]

While that might be true in terms of international law, a president's policies protecting the nation from terrorist attacks within its borders and protecting a ship stationed halfway around the world are two completely different things.

Cutting the military budget often has bad consequences on our miltary. Just ask Jimmy Carter about that.

[1bad65]

Seriously. If you point me to any actual specific instances of Bush' policies thwarting terrorist attacks within the US, I'll give the guy credit where credit is due.

Lets just see if you're a man of your word.

"The West Coast Airliner Plot: In mid-2002, the United States disrupted a plot to attack targets on the West Coast using hijacked airplanes. The plotters included at least one major operational planner involved in planning the events of Sept. 11.

The East Coast Airliner Plot: In mid-2003, the United States and a partner disrupted a plot to attack targets on the East Coast using hijacked commercial airplanes.

The Jose Padilla Plot: In May 2002, the United States disrupted a plot that involved blowing up domestic apartment buildings. One of the alleged plotters, Jose Padilla, also allegedly discussed the possibility of using a "dirty bomb" in the United States. "

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=1599331

And that's an ABS news story, not a "neocon blog". Let's see if you honor your word.....

[BoulderDawg]

You truly are the definition of an idiot. Are you this stupid? Honest, you can't believe that can you? A "mickey mouse operation"??? It was very well planned, organized, and executed. The only failure was Flight 93, and that was due to circumstances they could not control. Why do you think the attack was compared to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?

So let's see.....The hijackers getting drunk before the attack, the fact they they were all obviously middle eastern men, the fact they bought one way tickets......Yep! I can really see the brillance in their plan! It took an F'ing genius to devise a plan where a large group of men get on a passenger jet using box cutters, take it over then fly it into a building. Let's not even mention that some of these guys openly took flying lessons before the attack. It was obvious from the reaction from Bin Laden and others that they never thought in a million years that it would ever work.

Hell, to be honest, I'm not sure what upset Bush/Cheney more: The attack on the US or the fact that a bunch of drunken radicals made them look really stupid.

By the way, why would it not be compared (at least by someone) to Pearl Harbor. In fact it was compared to every surprise attack in history...Why not?

[BoulderDawg]

Cutting the military budget often has bad consequences on our miltary. Just ask Jimmy Carter about that.

How so? Are you saying that if Carter had spent 3X as much on the military that the Iranian hostage crisis would have never happened?

At least we didn't hear stories about thousand dollar hammers and things like that.

In Iraq today there is no accountability as far as finances goes. Of course there is a very good reason for that. Funny, I've never got an answer to my question as to why it cost 10 billion dollars a month to patrol around Iraq in Humvees.