Dirty Boxer
Whether you use Ancient Chinese classical writing or not the bowstring or bow cannot propel the arrow by itself. The arrow cannot be shot without tension so still not a good analogy of internal workings ancient of otherwise.Originally Posted by Hendrik
That all from me I’m afraid as a martial artist I’m off to do something very important to all martial artists that is to actually do some martial arts training.
Registered User
Whether you use Ancient Chinese classical writing or not the bowstring or bow cannot propel the arrow by itself. The arrow cannot be shot without tension so still not a good analogy of internal workings ancient of otherwise. -------
That is how you think.
The following are how the ancient master describe.
.......A feather cannot be placed,
and a fly cannot alight
on any part of the body.
The opponent does not know me;
I alone know him.....
The hsin [mind-and-heart] mobilizes the ch'i [vital life energy].
Make the ch'i sink calmly;
then the ch'i gathers and permeates the bones.
The ch'i mobilizes the body.
Make it move smoothly, so that it may easily follows the hsin.
The I [mind-intention] and ch'i must interchange agilely,
then there is an excellence of roundness and smoothness.
This is called "the interplay of insubstantial and substantial."
The hsin is the commander, the ch'i the flag, and the waist the banner.
The waist is like the axle and the ch'i is like the wheel.
The ch'i is always nurtured without harm.
Let the ch'i move as in a pearl with nine passages
without breaks
so that there is no part it cannot reach.
In moving the ch'i sticks to the back and permeates the spine.
It is said "first in the hsin, then in the body."
The abdomen relaxes, then the ch'i sinks into the bones.
The shen [spirit of vitality] is relaxed and the body calm.
The softest will then become the strongest.
When the ching shen is raised,
there is no fault of stagnancy and heaviness.
This is called suspending the headtop.
Inwardly make the shen firm,
and outwardly exhibit calmness and peace.
Store up the chin like drawing a bow.
Mobilize the chin like drawing silk from a cocoon.
Release the chin like releasing the arrow.
To fa-chin [discharge energy], sink, relax completely,
and aim in one direction! ...
To become a peerless boxer results from this.
There are many boxing arts.
Although they use different forms,
for the most part they don't go beyond
the strong dominating the weak,
and the slow resigning to the swift.
The strong defeating the weak
and the slow hands ceding to the swift hands
are all the results of natural abilities
and not of well-trained techniques.
From the sentence "A force of four ounces deflects a thousand pounds"
we know that the technique is not accomplished with strength.
I’m afraid as a martial artist I’m off to do something very important to all martial artists that is to actually do some martial arts training. ------
Respectable will!
However, that doesnt say your path is accord to the teaching of the ancestors.
I personally like to take the path of Ancestors because they have proven the technology.
Last edited by Hendrik; 11-30-2008 at 11:54 AM.
Registered User
This was an extreme case, and I do not, and have not practiced it since, but it is a glimpse of what one is capable of when yi is engaged, and combined with lik. -----
Yes, this is the magic of " ask and it is given".
However, we need to know what we are asking for. otherwise we might end up becomes a slave of what we are asking for.
the five animals form develops the five emotions-each emotion associated with a partcular animal and its corresponding techniques. The emotions are a mindset. Anger, Spirit,cunning,calmness, cold-blooded. They join together to develop overall mindset, so one is not enraged, yet can release rage-like power in an instant. The calmness of the crane controls the anger of the Tiger. The cold-blooded mind of the snake combines with the cunning of the leopard, etc, etc. ------
If one want to be an animal one certainly could go that path to condition one's mind to be animal like.
In modern language, this is just a programming for one to enter into an alter state. but then watch-out if one could become the slave of that state....
But, one needs to watch out for what one is programming oneself into.
In the western language, this is infact Sign a contract with some energy.
In buddhism, for those who practice Zen or Chan, emotion is the second skandal, in Shurangama sutra it is clearly state the demonic state of the skandals
click on
"The origin of demonic state"
and
Feeling Skandal
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhis...526.screen.pdf
If you are interested to know Buddhism's process.
One needs to be very careful for what one asked for or get into.
When dealing with Yi, Shen, and Awareness.
Shurangama sutra is the most important sutra in Zen or Chan training. Sitting in meditation or Martial Zen.
In Southern Mantis, the Sam Bo Ging (some schools call it Sam Bo Jin) and the training develop this mindset. The posture connects (theoretically) oneself to their reptilian mind. The intent is pushed and pushed so that as soon as the posture is created, as soon as the Hut Yee Sao (SPM's Bye Jong) comes up, the mind/intent switches on. ------
Some southern martial art comes with Folk spiritual/alter state practice called San Da.
One needs to very carefull what is the training about, is it the Zen like of training so that one will be lead into Enlightement or other types of practice.
PS.
In general, most training of Zen or martial art today doesnt go beyond the first skandha. Even in the shao lin training the state generally stop at some level of first skandha.
thus, information such as the Shurangama sutra was not popular even for the general meditators which only reach the state of relax and the most quiet down....but never really goes further because that already serve thier purpose.
Last edited by Hendrik; 11-30-2008 at 02:41 PM.
Banned
I hope you don’t mind me saying Hendrik, good thread...
This is I, identifying with “shen” and “jing”, waaaay off in another zone (free flowing)…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CucBbet1SUY
Throwing hooks like a cold hearted crook, and stealing dreams with these lazer beams…
Sucker shakeing and pleading down on his knees; while saying, “lord have mercy it’s Ali Rahim”!
Just messing with yah…
Ali Rahim.
Cybernetic Polymath
Question: Have you ever actually gone and played with a 4 ounce weight?
4 ounces is more something than nothing.
What's your experience of the 4 ounce principle?
Here's part of mine:
Before you can apply the "4 ounce" experience, you have to know your "4 ounce" limit.
Everyone has their own personal "4 ounce" limit, in the same way that everyone has their own personal body inch, or cun.
Cheers
Christian
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own." -Cicero
Registered User
According to the mind you are absolutely correct.
but then please explain what do you mean by "4 ounces is more something than nothing."
BTW, do you refer to Chinese ounce or British ounce?
Last edited by Hendrik; 12-05-2008 at 11:44 AM.
Cybernetic Polymath
Well, in terms of British vs. Chinese ounces, I have to say that I'm not familiar with the differences... a quick search online puts the British ounce at 28g, and the Chinese ounce at 50g. I did a search on ancient chinese measurements as well, and came up with gram equivalents of never less than 50g per ounce.
Personally, I've only ever played with British ounces... 4 of which equal 112g.
At any rate, a force of even 4 British ounces applied to the body has a marked effect on the organism as a whole. In other words, the body responds to the force as though it were "something" rather than "nothing," whether the conscious mind is aware of the force or not.
In my experience, however, the standard units of measurement mean little, since everyone has their own "personal" weight measurement system, in the same way that everyone has their own "personal" distance measure. The cun, or body inch, is a personal measure that is defined by the width of one's thumb at the phalangeal joint. This measurement is used in describing the various distances between your own personal anatomical landmarks. For instance, everyone's forearm is of a different length, but when you divide it into body inches based on their own personal scale, everyone's forearm from the crease of the elbow to the crease of the wrist is 12 cun, or twelve body inches.
The same is true for measuring "weight." The way a large, strong man's neurophysiology interacts with a pound is different from how a small, weak woman's interacts with a pound. There is, however, a certain amount of weight that you can give the strong man so that he experiences the same neurophysiological compensation as the weak woman. Likewise, there is a certain weight that you can give the woman so that her neurophysiology behaves in the same way as the strong man's does in relation to the pound.
Back to 4 ounces. As a personal measure, it reflects the "limit of strain" (this is my half-baked term, feel free to find a better one.) The limit of strain is the minimum force needed to for our neurophysiological response to recruit the stabilizing muscles of the body to maintain balance and interact with said force from a rooted position.
For the woman in the above example, this limit of strain is much less than the man. However, both the man and the woman have exactly this same response at their disposal given the appropriate application of force. In this way, "4 ounces" represents the minimum force needed to engage the entire body when receiving or issuing force.
I've developed a simple method of allowing students to experience their own personal "4 ounce" limit. It involves gradually applying force to a structurally sound student until they feel the need to apply force back in order to maintain their balance. The level of force experienced is different for every individual, but the neurophysiological response is the same.
Hope I've answered your questions. Back to mine: What's your experience with the 4 ounce principle?
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own." -Cicero
Registered User
See, soooo much energy needs to be burn just on thinking on one 4 ounce subject.
That is my experience.
BTW, since you know chinese or British ounce better then me,
may be you can tell me how many ounce is that in the standing post practice when the whole body is so light and swaying like a willow tree in the wind feeling like almost going to levitate?
The classical said,
" K1 point is not the root, waist is not the master, the willow spine is as soft as no bone, one hand spread out become thousand hands. " how many once is that I question the ancient sage.
Last edited by Hendrik; 12-05-2008 at 02:25 PM.
Cybernetic Polymath
Not quite sure what you mean. When I'm showing others or practicing this myself, none of the above thinking is necessary. In a non-experiential medium, however, where symbolic communication is all that is possible, it helps to give adequate amounts of description.
As I've mentioned previously, I have no experience with Standardized Chinese ounces per se, only what I've found on the internet.BTW, since you know chinese or British ounce better then me,
may be you can tell me how many ounce is that in the standing post practice when the whole body is so light and swaying like a willow tree in the wind feeling like almost going to levitate?
Regarding the experience of "lightness" experienced during Zhan Zhuang in relation to personal ounces:
tension in the body or limbs is experientially very similar to being exposed to force, or weight. Tension is indicative of an imbalance, be it a musculoskeletal imbalance affecting the psyche, or a psychoemotional imbalance affecting the body. For instance, someone who has poor posture is not only fighting against gravity to remain standing, but is also fighting against their own structural imbalance and self-image. It is this extra tension that is perceived as "weight," or in the realm of the psyche, "insecurity."
If a person progresses carefully and appropriately through Zhan Zhuang practice, balance and stability are restored in both the body and the psyche, and all tension unnecessary for standing is released. Tension, very similar to the experience of being acted upon by a force, is replaced by the experience of relaxation, or of having no outside force that needs acting against besides gravity. The feeling of no-tension equates to the feeling of no-weight. In a way, Zhan Zhuang gives the practitioner the opportunity to "tare," or attain the feeling of weightlessness... zero personal ounces.
..and what did the ancient sage have to say?The classical said,
" K1 point is not the root, waist is not the master, the willow spine is as soft as no bone, one hand spread out become thousand hands. " how many once is that I question the ancient sage.
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own." -Cicero
Registered User
Yup.
That is the bottom line of either it is four ounce or six ounce.... or zero ounce.
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