Comparison between wing chun and other long rang fighting styles

[lianweizhi]

I think one reason front kicks and side kicks (my personal favorite) aren't used as often is similar to what someone above mentioned already - most people trained primarily in roundhouse kicks and probably aren't very good at fronts and sides.

I agree with YouKnowWho's spear analogy, which is why I like the side kick so much - the last few sparring matches I've participated in with headgear and cup I've been able to land about 4 or 5 of these and leave just one or two footprints - yay for accuracy! But I would say few people have the flexibility to control the side kick as well as they should, to be able to land them on a consistent basis.

The second thing about the front and side kicks is that they do tend to be pretty easy to catch... if you meet the right (or wrong) person doing them. With these kicks, it is almost as important, if not moreso, to be quick to chamber as it is to be quick to deliver. Quick to deliver is obvious - force = mass x acceleration. But quick to re-chamber prevents your leg from getting caught. Flexibility also plays a big part here - more flexible guys (and gals) can retract their leg on the same trajectory that they attacked, providing less space to catch. Guys that get caught often simply fall into the opponent's grasp, even if they landed the kick, because they failed to retract quickly enough.

That said, I still love me some roundhouse kicks. My sifu used these even more than his hook kick (which his accuracy with still bewilders me to this day... I think I could literally run and hide in the bathroom and still get hit in the head by that kick), targeting the thighs and feet to trip you up or otherwise impair your ability to move.

[diego]

I think one reason front kicks and side kicks (my personal favorite) aren't used as often is similar to what someone above mentioned already - most people trained primarily in roundhouse kicks and probably aren't very good at fronts and sides.

I agree with YouKnowWho's spear analogy, which is why I like the side kick so much - the last few sparring matches I've participated in with headgear and cup I've been able to land about 4 or 5 of these and leave just one or two footprints - yay for accuracy! But I would say few people have the flexibility to control the side kick as well as they should, to be able to land them on a consistent basis.

The second thing about the front and side kicks is that they do tend to be pretty easy to catch... if you meet the right (or wrong) person doing them. With these kicks, it is almost as important, if not moreso, to be quick to chamber as it is to be quick to deliver. Quick to deliver is obvious - force = mass x acceleration. But quick to re-chamber prevents your leg from getting caught. Flexibility also plays a big part here - more flexible guys (and gals) can retract their leg on the same trajectory that they attacked, providing less space to catch. Guys that get caught often simply fall into the opponent's grasp, even if they landed the kick, because they failed to retract quickly enough.

That said, I still love me some roundhouse kicks. My sifu used these even more than his hook kick (which his accuracy with still bewilders me to this day... I think I could literally run and hide in the bathroom and still get hit in the head by that kick), targeting the thighs and feet to trip you up or otherwise impair your ability to move.

stop hits...can't catch when you fully extended. sparring is for sissies who didn't get beat by their pops. kung fu is defense according to bruce.

[lianweizhi]

Not sure what you mean by "stop hits" but as far as the full extension comment, I beg to differ... catching a full extension kick can be easily done if you create the right spacing. One of the main drills I work is hollowing out your torso to let the opponent get full extension but lessen the impact to you, and the leg will just drop into your waiting arms underneath, at which point you can follow up with a rear leg sweep or just push forward and knock him down.

Of course, if you don't have the right spacing, you will eat the kick, but IMO, one of the most important things a good fighter should have is a sense of spacing and timing - the right spacing allows you to generate maximum power.

[SimonM]

Heh!
My, my..... "how about that!?!
To me, this means that you actually haven't been exposed to ANY "legitimate" kicks.
(as done by an experienced TMA fighter)

No that would be a mistake. I've sparred against strikers before.

I've also been in fights with people who weren't wrestlers.

I have had plenty of opportunities to defend against kicks.

I just personally don't use them much.

Except for the low roundhouse... I love that thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Didn't Cung Lee take out an opponent with a front kick to the liver?

I believe it was a round kick, one those tight, triangular round kicks that some people do, other than those "wide looping MT round kicks".

[sanjuro_ronin]

A good front kick is not a "typical" teep, as many MT coaches tend to "push" the teep rather than use it as a "traditional" front kick.
While you certainly can push the front kick, any front kick, a typical TMA front kick tends to dive in and THROUGH the target, making its buckle unto itself.
If its higher than solar plexus level it will drive the person back, but at or lower than that level, it should make the person "crumple" upon impact.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A "not so bad" lead leg front kick from Pat Smith:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jj0R_g8lNgk

An angled front kick:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nRQ351FDtPA

[YouKnowWho]

The beauty of the front kick is most of the time your opponent will run into your kick if he has strong intention to knock your head off. It's a kick that can counter all kind of punches (because your leg is longer than your opponent's arm).

The front kick can also give you a chance to build your "leg bridge" but that will be a complete different subject.

IMO, the front kick is "CMA 101" that will give you the most reward for your training time investment.

[bakxierboxer]

No that would be a mistake. I've sparred against strikers before.

????
I thought that you were one of those guys that didn't think "sparring" was any good, since you need to work against a "fully resisting" opponent.

I've also been in fights with people who weren't wrestlers.

I have had plenty of opportunities to defend against kicks.

Judging from what you've written so far, apparently not against experienced TMA fighters.

I just personally don't use them much.

I've figured that out already.

Except for the low roundhouse... I love that thing.

I have no use for it at all.... except as a target.

[SimonM]

????
I thought that you were one of those guys that didn't think "sparring" was any good, since you need to work against a "fully resisting" opponent.

I think you have me mistaken for somebody else, sir, I have never espoused that sparring was no good. I love sparring. I think a sparring match much better "resistive training" than forms and advocate sparring regularly.

Judging from what you've written so far, apparently not against experienced TMA fighters.

Are you suggesting that forms of grappling aren't traditional? I'm a CMA guy. Just one who does less of the kicky-kicky and more of the trippy-throwy.

[bakxierboxer]

I think you have me mistaken for somebody else, sir, I have never espoused that sparring was no good. I love sparring. I think a sparring match much better "resistive training" than forms and advocate sparring regularly.

That hasn't been apparent to me, until you just said that.

Are you suggesting that forms of grappling aren't traditional? I'm a CMA guy. Just one who does less of the kicky-kicky and more of the trippy-throwy.

Not so much that, as you don't seem to have had much experience against folks who actually trained in combat/application-oriented striking/kicking TMA.
Your experiences/conclusions about front/round kicks are evidence of that, and I don't appear to be "The Lone Ranger" when I point that out.

FINDING the "right" TMA is not nearly as easy as it might be.... it's probably the case that it was easier "back in the day".

[SimonM]

Actually it took me a long time to settle on a wrestling methodology and I went to many schools throughout my youth finding a right fight. Prior to the kung fu school I ended up at the best-fit was an early-teenage stint at a judo school but they closed.

I have boxed (even entering into a semi-pro match, which I lost).
I have done kick boxing.
I have wrestled and done submission wrestling.
I have been in fights in uncontrolled environments.

I'm not the world's greatest kicker, I'll admit that, but I am really good at smacking people with the earth.

So, in short, I agree that finding a good fit style / school / method is hard.

[bakxierboxer]

Actually it took me a long time to settle on a wrestling methodology and I went to many schools throughout my youth finding a right fight. Prior to the kung fu school I ended up at the best-fit was an early-teenage stint at a judo school but they closed.

I don't believe that I ever had a "bad fit" within any school I attended.
It also seems that every school I walked in to was a "good fit"....
OK, I didn't walk into all that many.

I'm not the world's greatest kicker...

Me neither.
(otoh, I used to make a few bucks from bar-bets.... )

I'll admit that, but I am really good at smacking people with the earth.

A little difference here, too.... I tend to like using the earth as an anvil.

So, in short, I agree that finding a good fit style / school / method is hard.

YMMV?
For some, it has to be.... that is their "path".

[SimonM]

That is something I can most certainly agree on.