Question on Hsing Yi

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am curious about Hsing Yi and wanted to ask in what order the 5 fists are taught, or does it vary?

Also curious if anyone knows of any schools teaching in the Greenville, SC area.

Thanks in advance.

[Dale Dugas]

http://www.mhkungfu.com/CACMA/cacma.php

These people might be able to help you

[NorthernShaolin]

Usually the order is P'i, (Metal), peng (wood), Tsuang (Water), P'ao (fire), and last Heng (earth).

[doug maverick]

actually thats incorrect, in terms of usually only some schools do it in that order, water use to be before wood but sun lu tang changed it(i forgot why but it made sense).

[Doc Stier]

Some styles teach solo form practice of the Five Element Fists in the order of the Traditional Creation Cycle of the Five Element Phases used in Chinese Medicine, namely Metal creates Water, which creates Wood, which creates Fire, which creates Earth, which creates Metal to complete one full cycle.

Two person partner forms and drills may also be included which use the Traditional Control Cycle of the Five Element Phases, namely Metal controls Wood, which controls Earth, which controls Water, which controls Fire, which controls Metal.

Doc

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Thanks to everyone for the information. I am sure it will come in handy. I have long been interested in Hsing Yi and now that I am older and more settled in Wing Chun I am considering exploring this art in more detail.

Again I appreciate everyones input. If anyone ever gets down around Greenville, feel free to look me up.

[mantis108]

Usually the order is P'i, (Metal), peng (wood), Tsuang (Water), P'ao (fire), and last Heng (earth).

This is the order of the solo form which demonstrates the "orthodox" order that follows the 9 palaces matrix/diagram in the destructive cycle (counter clockwise) of the five phases. But in the partnered form, each fist of the exponent is countered by the opponent's fist; thus giving birth to a creative cycle of the five phases.

Pi -> Tsuang <> Pao; Pao -> Heng <> Tsuang
Tsuang -> Beng <> Heng; Heng -> Pi <> Beng
Beng -> Pao <> Pi; Pi -> Tsuang <> Pao
Pao -> Heng <> Tsuang; Tsuang -> Beng <> Heng
Heng -> Pi <> Beng; Beng -> Pao <> Pi

Mantis108

[Three Harmonies]

The creation and destruction cycle have NOTHING to do with combat! Actually trying to negate or create one in terms of the other will get you hit, over and over and over again.
The order varies with each family. To be more precise it is usually the order of Beng and Tsuan that differ. All XY I have seen/studied starts with Pi, and ends with Heng.

Cheers
Jake

[ingchao]

Some styles teach solo form practice of the Five Element Fists in the order of the Traditional Creation Cycle of the Five Element Phases used in Chinese Medicine, namely Metal creates Water, which creates Wood, which creates Fire, which creates Earth, which creates Metal to complete one full cycle.

Two person partner forms and drills may also be included which use the Traditional Control Cycle of the Five Element Phases, namely Metal controls Wood, which controls Earth, which controls Water, which controls Fire, which controls Metal.

Doc

Ever since seeing that diagram years ago, I was curious to see if there was any relation between Chinese medicine and Wicca. Pretty interesting how the 2 developed so far apart or did they?

[TenTigers]

There are even more similarities between wiccacreaft, or pagan Earth-based religion/philosophies, and Taoism/Chinese "Buddhism." (something that is hard to catagorize, as if you ask many Chinese people, they will call themselves either one)
The connection to the tides of the Earth-changing of the seasons, the solstices and equinoxes,the harvest,fertility, healing,herbology, Magick, or San-Gung. Even the purification using the elements is the same. etc-all very similar. Whether you call them Woden and Freya, or Guan Gung and Guan Yum (Kuan Gung and Kuan Yin) they represent male and female, strength, justice and compassion. You can also find Kabballistic connections as well. Whether if came from New Forest, or Young Forest, It's all good.
Buddhist/Taoists, just don't git nekkid!

[taai gihk yahn]

Taoists, just don't git nekkid!

aside from those 500 person Han Dynasty orgies, that is...

[TenTigers]

aside from those 500 person Han Dynasty orgies, that is...

Sh**! where was I when all this was going on?
Why wasn't I notified? I want some answers, dang it!

[Doc Stier]

The creation and destruction cycle have NOTHING to do with combat! Actually trying to negate or create one in terms of the other will get you hit, over and over and over again.

Well, yes and no. From a martial standpoint, practicing Five Fists according to the Creation Cycle of the Five Element Phases certainly relates directly to the opening and clearing of the body's energy channels, and to the subsequent refining, gathering, consolidation, and compression of intrinsic energy internally, not only for healing and health maintenance, but also for potential martial application via fa-jin techniques.

And the Control Cycle of Five Element Phases offers rudimentary suggestions on how the Five Fists can neutralize, control, and overcome one another in a martial context, both physically and energetically, IMO. These five foundation examples, however, are only a starting point, not an end point by any means. The potential variety of possible fighting applications to be found in Hsing-Yi Chuan movement patterns and postures is limited only by the depth of insight and understanding of the individual practitioner.

I have trained these methods with this perspective for more than 40 years time, and yet it most definitely has not caused me to "get hit over and over and over again", as you predicted.

Lastly, I must say, Jake, that I am a bit surprised by your overtly 'external' focal point.

Doc

[Three Harmonies]

Doc -
I do not buy into the "internal vs. external" debate. To me, "internal" just means you have the correct posture and body alignment, coupled with proper intent in your action. Nothing to do with qi and what not IMO.
Too many techniques to make general statements about water over coming earth, and fire neautralized by water etc. The five elements were an after thought. Hell in the beginning there were only 3 fists!
To each their own though Doc. If it has helped you, then it is valid in it's usage.

Cheers
Jake

[Doc Stier]

Doc -
I do not buy into the "internal vs. external" debate. To me, "internal" just means you have the correct posture and body alignment, coupled with proper intent in your action. Nothing to do with qi and what not, IMO.
Too many techniques to make general statements about water over coming earth, and fire neutralized by water etc.

Jake:

Forget about the labels. I have no interest in any debate about internal vs. external.

However, there is another dimension to high level skills in most martial arts, regardless of the techniques used or their applications, which transcends the overt physical force and external power produced by the exertions of muscles, tendons, and ligaments via "correct posture and body alignment".

There is also a potentially dynamic vertical energy factor which can be generated and expressed through effective structural employment of the spine, and a potentially dynamic horizontal energy factor which can be generated and expressed through effective lateral rotations of the hips and waist (kua). These factors can greatly contribute to overall force and power in any technique as well.

Again, forget the labels. It is not necessary to label these energy dynamics with any specific name....such as qi, chi, ki....or whatever. Such terms are in fact oftentimes so misunderstood or misinterpreted, that they may become more of a stumbling block and impediment to accurately perceiving and feeling the energy dynamics at play in a technique.

Based on my personal experience, 'internal power' isn't about any magical, mysterious, or esoteric occult secrets. Nor is it simply about packing and positioning the internal organs of the body, or regulating the breath in a specific manner, and so forth.

From my point of view, 'internal power' is related more to the domain of the mind, and thus with any methods which effectively discipline the mind for combat, train the mind intent, and program the mind for optimum automatic reactions and spontaneous responses in combat.

From a martial perspective, this is merely a return to the obvious, where all of the supposed secrets are hidden in plain view!

Doc