All You's guys

[Fu Manchu]

Kicking Mantis

When you refer to Eagle Calw, I'm assuming you mean a 5 finger hold with the thumb opposing the other 4 fingers.

By defination, this will provide a stronger grip and it is suitable for holidng objects that are not mobile.

However, to get a "5 finger lock on" in the flurry of combat is extremely rare. Or rather, you will be moving through many other alternatives such as palming, hitting, hooking, deflecting etc. before moving into the "claw" alternative.

The Mantis hook however is very versitle as pointed out by Obiwan and would be used a lot more than a 5-finger grab. It's not tlike once you've learned to use a mantis hook, you lose the ability to hold things with 5 fingers LOL.

So, do mantis practitioners use a 5 finger grab? yes we do but we don't make a big deal out of it or give it a special name. If the situation presents itself for the "grab" and we want to "control" rather then "destroy" our target, we'll do it but at the same time we don't look for things to grab.

Your reference to the Eagle Claw Instructor's grip: If someone can prevent me from escaping only because I let him grip me in the first place - I wouldn't worry about it. As a mantis practitioner, you should have dealt with the situation BEFORE the lock gets put on!!!!
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[KickingMantis]

You said, "To get a 5 finger lock on a flurry of combat is extremely rare."

It is difficult to get a lock on in a flurry of attacks with any lock 1-2-3-4-5 fingers. Thats not and wasn't the issue. If you are fighting someone that knows how to punch and they are retracting as fast as they execute, you would rarely get a lock.

That wasn't the issue and the point was missed.

And your very last paragraph is off the mark too, you said,

"If someone can prevent me from escaping only because I let him grip me in the first place - I wouldn't worry about it. As a mantis practitioner, you should have dealt with the situation BEFORE the lock gets put on!!!!

The issue wasn't whether to let someone lock you and try to escape or to even worry about it.
The point I was making was directed towards the statement made by Obiwan that the Eagle Claw is easy to escape from.
I am saying, no its not if it is applied effectively from some one that knows what they are doing.

I used Master Lum Shum of the No. Eagle Claw system becuase he is known for his Eagle Claw and his strong grip, I know by attending a seminar of his at my previous instructors school that he has a extremely STRONG grip and it is not easily escapable if applied.

Maybe you & Obiwan should actually touch with someone that is proficient in Eagle Claw and then u can post blanket statements of the easiness of escaping from their claw.

But to me it is a blanket statement made with no back up.It would be like saying that the mantis hand doesn't work.

And I agree you SHOULD be able to deal with the grab before the lock is intact, but what if you dont? or what if you can't what if the other hand is locked up already too? We should be able to do a lot of things. IF IF IF.

And the issue to me still isnt about Eagle Claw vs Mantis Claw its about assuming Eagle Claw or any other claw for that matter is easy to escape unless you have first hand experience fighting with a good percentage of good quality Eagle Claw instructors or students.

[This message was edited by KickingMantis on 12-01-00 at 08:25 PM.]

[chyisan]

It seems like there's some conflict brewing here... Mind if I change the subject?

Some of you mentioned the mantis grab using the thumb and the last 3 fingers. I was always taught the mantis grab using the thumb and the first 2 fingers. Is there a differnce in application or advantage of one over the other? 8stepSifu, what about you? Since we both are 8 step, how do you do your mantis hook?

Mindlessness is the enemy...

[mantis108]

While it is great to have seasoned practitioner sharing their Kung Fu with others, it is very important to bear in mind novice are the audience on the forums as well.

It would seem that the topic becomes a discussion between Hook Hand the formation and Hood Hand the applications.

Hood Hand the formation is elementary. All NPM have their own theory. It would be pointless to judge which is better.


Hood Hand the applications (note the use of prural) adhere to the 12 charactors principle. Again there are many schools of thought on the 12 charactors. The Hood Hand can and should process all these qualities as follow (I am listing a few)

Ou Sau is a feeler or a probe as in a jab. It's fast and elusive.

Dieu Sau is a heavy binder. It is like the Cross to a jab.

Lau is grab, wrap, and embrace. It is to gain control of opponent's extended tool(s).

Choi is pluck - to nullify, to mime, and/or to hit stop (strike in some cases)

Each can be used individually or in combination. Each can be used with single or double hand(s).

If we use the single handed Ou-Lau-Choi the finished formation will look like a Dieu Sau.

You intercept (relaxed open hand) the incoming blow that's Ou, then following (with sensitivity) and wrap (3 finger is still an Ou or 5 fingers is a classic Lau), finally to pluck and nullify it to the side or downward (with or without a tug) and that's Choi. The full motion is Dieu as is throwing junks away form you. Of course, the other tools are still in action.

2 things to remember about Manits is that:

1) It's primary a striking art

2) It's mostly a Progressive Indirect Attack style. That is why you have tones of combinations and deceptive moves.

If you are aggressive and impatient like Bruce Lee, then Mantis is not for you.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[obiwan]

8 - First of all if you actually read my post I said that I don't fight with hooks, but they can be used for striking in some situations (like groin and throat) and train people for a quick grab.

Obiwan- My point is that the hooks being such an important component, seems to be an oversight not to use it more often. Sometimes great hit locations which are only accessible by a hook strike present themselves. As for locations of hits, my previous post has already covered those hit locations.

8- As for Lan Jie, if you actually knew the applications to it you would know that the motion is neither a block nor a strike, but before you rant and rave that I'm wrong actually think about it.. Why would you block like "Danialsan paints the fence"

Obiwan- Because you are at point blank range and normal blocks do not work. You need to cut of the attack and you do not have the liberty of space to move your arms much.

8- No it represents a continuaiton of a continuation of a throw.
Obiwan - It can be the continuation of a throw, but there doesn't seem to have the body movement to support that action.

8- Please don't bore me any more, you ranted and raved saying exactly the same thing that I did,

Obiwan- If I am boring you, don't reply. If I am ranting and raving, why do other people compliment my post, and why have others used it as a positive frame of reference for arguement.

I do know the applications for Liang Jie. Please dont insult my intelligence. I know nothing about you, and I have only made judgements on people's statements.
You are a mantis practioner who doesnt seem to place much importance on hooks, which to me seems very unusual since it is a trademark move of the style. Not to say that it is the ultimate move by any means, but it is an important one.


8- I have seen other mantis styles try to duke it out from the classic mantis holds the cicaida posture, which is begging for a joint lock and evidently you don't do this, thank you for your imput.

Obiwan -Agreed. Feeling is mutual

In conclusion, I apologised for flaming on email, but i was shocked by people's lack of knowledge in the hook's uses. Let alone a question, "what are they used for."

I apologised at the end so as not to offend anyone. Your message was pure scorn. When you have cooled down, perhaps we can continue discussing the use of mantis hooks.

The Force will be with you...always

[Fu Manchu]

Kicking Mantis

I wonder what LAWCLANSMAN has to say. After all he is claimed to have inherited the full mantis system of over 10000000 forms.

Whether someone could grab you in the first place is precisely the point. If there is a low chance of them getting a "lock on" why spend squillions of hours learning to escape. Sure a piano can fall from a plane and hit on the head and no amount of KF will defend you from that!!

You said:
"Then you haven't been grabbed by the right Eagle Claw martial artist. Let Master Shum Lum from New York grab you, you escape and then you tell us how easy it was for you to escape. LOL!"

My point is that, your example is unrealistic.

In any case, the strength of the grip is marginal to the overall effectiveness of the claw. You don't expect an unwilling opponent would be led around by the arm like a puppy would you? If that was not the case, why would riot police have to work in teams to subdue an opponent.

Real KF is not some party trick on how hard you can grab or how long Harry Hudini takes to escape. It is true that if a lock down is achieved ( regardless of the style - Mantis, Eagle, wrestling) escape will be difficult. However, we're not taking about a grab, but more like a head lock etc.
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[KickingMantis]

I sense a since of sarcasm in your post and I think that by us going back and forth on this issue is going nowhere.

I dont know why you brought LAWCLANSMAN (SIfu C. Albright) into this discussion. You said " I wonder what LAWCLANSMAN has to say. After all he is claimed to have inherited the full mantis system of over 10000000 forms."
Sounds like you have an issue with him, the number of forms he knows and his inheritancy. You should probably clear up your personal issues and insecurities with him on a one on one basis.

You seem to think that you are invincable and will never be grabbed and if you do, you can escape it by any one that grabs you, especially if it is a five finger grab.

I am going to assume that you do not use your system to fight and that you do not fight often (maybe you do with gloves or you have just reached this heavenly plateau and you are now invincable). And no one can ever grab you.

I have been given the opportunity to touch often lately and I am grabbed and I grab, depending on the grab it is easy to escape and sometimes it is not.

In MY opinion you made a blanket statement that the "Five Finger" or "Eagle Claw" is easy to escape I was just trying to explain to you that, NO it is not if applied during touching hands or a fight with someone that knows how to use the claw and yes the point is not to be grabbed, but reality is if two seasoned fighters are engaging in combat they are both going to grab and lock each other up, yes there are counters, however, you need to realize that you are not living in reality when you continue to say i will never be grabbed, because you will and you need to know what to do when you are. It is evident that you dont know what to do if you are because you are concentrating too much on not being grabbed and the second you engage someone that is good at sticking and they grab you, you are going to freak out try to pull away and get locked up.

you said, "If there is a low chance of them getting a lock on why spend squillions of hours learning to escape."

I never said there is a low chance of getting a lock on, but just because you spend squillions of hours, as you say to get a lock on or escape a lock doesn't mean you will grab and lock every one you fight or touch with and it doesn't mean that you will escape them either.

So my example was not realistic Fu Manchu.......
you said and made a blanket statement that the five finger grab is easy to escape from....I am advocatig it isnt always the case if you are grabbed by an individual that knows what they are doing, yeah you can counter and so can they, but to assume that a partucular technique doesnt work because you haven't had it applied on you effectively is like saying all kung fu sucks.:)

[This message was edited by KickingMantis on 12-05-00 at 11:30 AM.]

[obiwan]

In my experience, Eagle claw is far more difficult to apply correctly in the thick of combat.

I didnt suggest it doesnt work, what I said earlier that the time lag and the sensitivity of the grab is considerably less than the mantis hook.

While the hook can feel on at least 3 planes of movement, the Eagle claw by its nature really only works on 2, thus it is harder to compensate for when someone is trying to get out of it.

The mantis gives me much more sensitivity than the former.

The arguement was not whether Eagle works. It does. But I think the mantis hook can compensate for sudden changes BEFORE the grab is fully applied. (Dont you agree that is when most grabs fail, when they haven't quite clamped on?)

I think it is easier to compensate and turn the hook into a hit or a defence compared to the Eagle Claw. This is my experience and the experience of many fighters I know. My point in the end is that no one has ever needed to point out a SPECIFIC SIFU who can perform the grab, where as Kicking Mantis had to tell us who can actually use the move.

Most people who are taught the mantis hook can apply it effectively. (In my experience) It's not a situation of, "It doesn't work? Well "so and so" can do it."

Mantis hook is more of a, "Do you know how to apply it?" And if the person does, people havent said it doesnt work. (On this forum anyway)

Cheers
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The Force will be with you...always

[Fu Manchu]

Hey Kicking Mantis,

Never did the FUster claim to be invincible or ungrabbable. Although I do thank you for holding me in such high regard when you don't really know me!

Never did I say it was impossible to "lock", only that one would have to get through a lot of opposing factors to get into that range!!

I was hoping that LawClansMan had something to contribute as he is usually quite vocal on the forums. i don't have any problems with him or anyone for that matter. Engaging in forums is my relaxation time, I hope you see it that way too. Nevertheless i do thank you for your concern about my perceived personal insecurities!!

In terms of grabbing, it is not easy to put on - evidence police subduing opponents. Even in a controlled environment of No holds barred contest, the match takes substantially longer time on average than a real fight.

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[KickingMantis]

Obiwan,

I only mentioned theat particular sifu because i know personally that his Eagle claw grab is incredibe.

A lot of people do mantis and other styles and they grab as well. It does mean that it is effective.It depends on the individual and the circumstance.

Fu Manchu made a blanket statement and said it is easily escapable. My argument is if you fight, you know that you CAN be grabbed, and sometimes you dont feel it right away or pull away from it it can lead to a lock. In my opinion I dont think any grab is easily escapable always. Fu Manchu said the point of studying mantis is so you will not be grabbed. I agree. But you have to prepare yourself and know what to do if you are. Assuming that a grab is easily escapable so I wont worry about it is ridiculous.

Obiwan:
"In my experience, Eagle claw is far more difficult to apply correctly in the thick of combat."

ok, you may not have studied Eagle Claw or you are not proficient at it. I dont study Eale Claw either, But I have learned some of it and some of its principles are in 7 Star Mantis (HK)

Obiwan:
"I didnt suggest it doesnt work, what I said earlier that the time lag and the sensitivity of the grab is considerably less than the mantis hook."

I dont think I ever said you suggested it doesn't work. The only thing I said was replying to Fu Manchu's blanket statement that it can be easily escaped from. My opinion is that any grab, can be easily escaped from if you are grabbed from someone that doesn't know how or isn't proficient.
but it can be difficult to escape from to both grabs or any grab depending ona lot of factors, not just the position of the hand.

Obiwan:
"Mantis hook is more of a, "Do you know how to apply it?" And if the person does, people havent said it doesnt work. (On this forum anyway)"

Any hook or grab is more of a Do you know how to apply it, that refers to any technique, theory or method not just the mantis claw or Eagle Claw

Fu Manchu:
"I was hoping that LawClansMan had something to contribute as he is usually quite vocal on the forums. i don't have any problems with him or anyone for that matter. Engaging in forums is my relaxation time, I hope you see it that way too. Nevertheless i do thank you for your concern about my perceived personal insecurities!!"

earlier you said:

"I wonder what LAWCLANSMAN has to say. After all he is claimed to have inherited the full mantis system of over 10000000 forms."

I dont know sounds pretty sarcastic to me. I dont know anyone that knows 10,000,000 forms and I dont speak for him, but i am sure he didn't claim to.

Fu Manchu:
"In terms of grabbing, it is not easy to put on - evidence police subduing opponents. Even in a controlled environment of No holds barred contest, the match takes substantially longer time on average than a real fight."

Ok. I see now. I see what I am up against. Thats why. another No Holds Barred and WWF fan.

[Kenji]

The reason some mantis lineages (particularly the ones frm HK) uses the eagle claw is because quite afew of the teachers also learnt eagle claw. I think there was exchange of information between Mr Lau of Eagle Claw (forgot his full name) and some mantis teachers and also because eagle claw and mantis were two of the main styles in the Ching Wu Association.

As for the effectiveness of the eagle claw tecnhique I can't comment much on it since I haven't learn Ying Zhao before.

[ChitownMantis]

(Bowing In)
Have you done something to have people seem to hate you and what you say??? I seem that on every post I read someone is dissin' you. Just curious , what gives?

(Bowing Out)

[ChitownMantis]

I am talking to 8stepsifu