Kyokushin vs. Drunken Boxing vid

[Lucas]

And I always thought you had some experience!

well.....somebody had to.

[Kansuke]

And the hardworking troll keeps up his 'hardwork.'


Why he bothers to expend so much energy on it....

[Hardwork108]

Will you guys Mr Punch and Lucas cut it out! You are only encouraging Sanjuro ronin to put a video clip of his "long" Johnson on YouTube (no doubt to add "credibility" to his "resume").

[friday]

The student can have the meaning of the techniques explained to him as soon as he is performing them correctly while performing the form. This means that there is no point in teaching him applications if his stances are not correct and he is not delivering the strikes correctly.

He should not be visualizing any applications while he is performing his form incorrectly. Initially his MAIN focus should be in the correct performance of the movements.

I disagree with this. I think that a student will better perform the move if he/she understands the reasoning behind it. I would probably even suggest that in light sparring after each class that the students try to apply the techniques they learnt that day and the sifu would correct them if he sees any issues. But then on this - we can agree to disagree.

...Seriously speaking. I am against holding back if the student is worthy,dedicated and of GOOD CHARACTER. However not all students can be classified as worthy that means that in traditional schools there would be chosen disciples who would be taught everything while the rest would be taught the "standard" stuff.

The problem arises when the people who have not learned everything become "sifus" and then transfer their "knowledge" to the unknowing students. This scenario occurs because the said students decide to teach without their sifus´ permission or because the sifu gives them the permission to teach for financial reasons or just because he does not care less, knowing very well that the secrets of his given style are safe with him and his chosen disciples.

Is this right or wrong? The answer is "Yes".

hmmm...I think this is a common transmission process, however, people being people do you think if this principle of "worthy,dedicated and of GOOD CHARACTER" were diligently applied, there would be any kung fu today? The reality is inspite of the aspirations, kung fu has just as many good and bad people as any other part of the community and this applies to students and sifu. As my sifu said once - it is very difficult for a student to find a good sifu and very hard for a sifu to find a good student...

his experience serves to remind us all, specially the beginners that when we think we are ready for more or deeper instruction, we may well be mistaken.

this can be true sometimes...

I agree that without learning the applications of one´s forms one is doing nothing but dancing, however I truly believe that the student must be able to perform his form to a good level eg. with strong stances and solid and flowing techniques before he is taught the applications.

As I said before we can agree to disagree on this.

Of course I do!

great! we agree!

The answers may be found in the core style (assuming that some of the MMA-ists really practise kung fu as their core style) but they are not to be found "so readily". I would suggest that many people opt for MMA because the results can be achieved relatively quicker. Also nowadays people seem to have shorter attentions spans, not just regarding MA training but also cooking/eating, TV, music and etc.

If I work as a bouncer and need to use alot of restraint/submission/controlled throws/joint manipulation, etc etc rather than outright strikes should I train in a school that leaves this section or most of these 'secret' techniques for its 'advanced' students after say you train for 4-5 years and also after successfully going through the process of character and loyalty assessment decided on by one person, namely the sifu? doing MMA for some people maybe because it is more practical/efficient and effective relative to the amount of committed time devoted to practising and training. (this issue being the topic Ray Pina raised recently).

Furthermore it is much easier to find a good MMA school than a good and authentic kung fu school. Plus the popular (among some) belief that kung fu does not work or is "lacking", doesn´t not help the case either.

This in part due to the numerous vids of kung fu practitioners performances against BJJ, MMA, etc on youtube.
There are good KF schools around. I'm disappointed as to why they seem to be few and far between...

I assume from where the rest of WC came from and that is Shaolin Kung fu.



It is from before the popularity of BJJ.

Show us these techniques if you ever learn the form and are allowed to.

Probably. A better test would be a street fight, a real one.

yes - have you ever had your skills street tested? I haven't.

With the right (kung fu) power the reliability increases.

With what I can only describe as unreal power, combined with a system that controls and visciously hits the enemy with the sole intention of visciously causing them concussion/maximum damage and/or breaking limbs, the risks don´t seem that high.

if you ever come by my way you can try this on me.

I will stick to realistic sparring, thank you. This is not to say that sports competitions are not sometimes benefitial, just that they are not the beginning and the end in MA training.

can you show me the sparring that you do?

I see your point and it has been made here before but again I believe that if you practice your kung fu style in an authentic manner then you will learn what is needed to learn. After which you may wish or not wish to test what you have learnt against every MA known to man.

can you outline what/how you practise kung fu in an authentic manner?
what you regard as authentic training. thx.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I always thought you had some experience!

LOL !
Well burned !

[Hardwork108]

I disagree with this. I think that a student will better perform the move if he/she understands the reasoning behind it. I would probably even suggest that in light sparring after each class that the students try to apply the techniques they learnt that day and the sifu would correct them if he sees any issues. But then on this - we can agree to disagree.

Another area that we would need to agree to disagree would be the "when" of the introduction of any kind of free sparring to the student. If you take a beginner and make him spar from day one then you will most probably (but not always, perhaps) find that he will be hopping around a la Bruce Lee or a boxer, etc.

Again, I believe that certain basics must be ingrainned into the student before he is taught application and the "application" of that application, but as I said before we can agree to disagree on this one as well.

hmmm...I think this is a common transmission process, however, people being people do you think if this principle of "worthy,dedicated and of GOOD CHARACTER" were diligently applied, there would be any kung fu today?

Yes there would be kung fu today, perhaps not as much but with better quality of instruction.

The reality is inspite of the aspirations, kung fu has just as many good and bad people as any other part of the community and this applies to students and sifu.

And that is perhaps because of the McKung fu phenomenom. I have been seen schools of kung fu where the sifus are very choosey about who they teach. The sifu in the none WC school of kung fu where I practiced in London even said that he did not want more than around 14 students as a higher number of students would prevent him from focusing on individual students and hence affect his teaching. This is the type of stuff I talk about when I talk about AUTHENTIC kung fu schools.

As my sifu said once - it is very difficult for a student to find a good sifu and very hard for a sifu to find a good student...

I agree not to disagree on this one.

As I said before we can agree to disagree on this.

great! we agree!

If I work as a bouncer and need to use alot of restraint/submission/controlled throws/joint manipulation, etc etc rather than outright strikes should I train in a school that leaves this section or most of these 'secret' techniques for its 'advanced' students after say you train for 4-5 years and also after successfully going through the process of character and loyalty assessment decided on by one person, namely the sifu? doing MMA for some people maybe because it is more practical/efficient and effective relative to the amount of committed time devoted to practising and training. (this issue being the topic Ray Pina raised recently).

Well we agree here. I am not against people who practice MMA even if I pull their legs (not in a take down sense) once in a while. What gets under my skin is when they make their uninformed comments regarding kung fu practice.

Furthermore, there is no denying that when one needs specialised sets of techiques perhaps for security/law enforcement work or even to compete for "medals" then one is better off practicing those specialised techniques outside the traditional mode of practice. That is what probable happens most of the time.

This in part due to the numerous vids of kung fu practitioners performances against BJJ, MMA, etc on youtube.
There are good KF schools around. I'm disappointed as to why they seem to be few and far between...

Well from my experience they are few and far between.

Show us these techniques if you ever learn the form and are allowed to.

Well I will be spending a short time in Brasil later on this year and of course I will be training with sifu. Who knows if I show enough improvements maybe he will go into the groundfighting aspects. Wether I can "show" them is another story.

Actually a couple of posters here have seen a bit of what I am talking about. Last year my sifu visited London and did a seminar on Siu Lam Wing Chun. I missed it myself as I was unfortunately out of the country on that weekend, but as I understand it he did address and explain the groundfighting and its application within the principles of Wing Chun.

If I remember correctly LoneTiger108 and LSWCTN1, both of whom post here were at the seminar. Maybe they can give you more info if they are reading this or maybe you can PM them.

yes - have you ever had your skills street tested? I haven't.

Just once. It is funny that I would attract trouble and fights a lot more before I started kung fu.

if you ever come by my way you can try this on me.

Firstly, I don`t have the full kung fu power (I am working on it though) and secondly why would I want to hurt you?

can you show me the sparring that you do?

How

can you outline what/how you practise kung fu in an authentic manner?
what you regard as authentic training. thx.

To cut a long story short. The authentic training encompasses the various aspects and levels of kung fu traning and not just what the student sees as "relevant", "practical", "functional" and etc.

This means primarily the emphasis is in creating the kung fu roots. Yes, long and painful stance training to help one to eventually "sink" naturally during practice and combat. This is an area of emphasis that is obviously lacking nowadays. One has just to look at some "kung fu" people sparring, while hopping around like boxers (if not jack rabbits) to appreciate how much.

The other area overlooked nowadays is the internal/chi kung training that contributes, among other things, to what some kung fu people call "relaxed power". Other benefits of this type of training include the enhancement of "listening" ability and general sensitivity.

Iron Palm training is part of the traditional approach in our school. This training is not about creating calluses or hardenning the hands (a popular belief among the knucklehead "kung fu experts" here). It is about creating heaviness in the hands and about creating the capability of delivering PENETRATIVE blows to the opponent. This training incorporates chi kung as well.

The Ip training includes hitting the sand bowl while sitting in a Shaolin (not wing chun) horse stance. There are other exercises as well.

Forms training is taken seriously as well with great attention to details including stances and the correct breathing.

The constant practice of the various types of chi sao, including Kum Na(grappling) chi sao eventually lead to contact sparring - San sao (free hands).

Conditioning exercises include Chin ups (on the bar); sit ups and leg raises; animal walking;stance work and other resistance training. No Weight training!

I think that you get the general idea from the above.

[TenTigers]

And that is perhaps because of the McKung fu phenomenom. I have been seen schools of kung fu where the sifus are very choosey about who they teach. The sifu in the none WC school of kung fu where I practiced in London even said that he did not want more than around 14 students as a higher number of students would prevent him from focusing on individual students and hence affect his teaching. This is the type of stuff I talk about when I talk about AUTHENTIC kung fu schools.

My SPM teacher is the same way. He feels that even five of us is cutting it close.

[Hardwork108]

My SPM teacher is the same way. He feels that even five of us is cutting it close.

Hats off to your SPM teacher and hats off to you for training with him.

Do you train the Chow Gar branch?

[TenTigers]

Hats off to your SPM teacher and hats off to you for training with him.

Do you train the Chow Gar branch?

Lum Wing Fay's Kwong Sai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai

[Hardwork108]

Lum Wing Fay's Kwong Sai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai

Thank you for the info.

Is there a site I can look at for more technical info on this branch of SPM?

[TenTigers]

Thank you for the info.

Is there a site I can look at for more technical info on this branch of SPM?

http://www.jooklummantis.com/jlm/index.asp

here's one. I think he has other links as well.

[Hardwork108]

http://www.jooklummantis.com/jlm/index.asp

here's one. I think he has other links as well.

Thanks again.

[Hardwork108]

it was my response, or rather the lack of words to describe my response to who mis understood forum postings can be. such as when hardwork thinks im kansuke's buddy because in a different thread i made a comment on how hardwork took kansuke's bait (implying he was baiting, you know like a troll ).

Did I read correctly? Did someone else refer to Kansuke as a troll? How dare you? Didn´t you know that the man is a wrestler? Didn´t you know that in a modern kung fu forum, filled with Know Nothing Knuckleheads, you are not allowed to refer to any wrestler as a troll? Didn`t you know that wrestlers grapple and groundfight?

You should have known that you can only make that statement about people who actually have trained authentic kung fu? Boy you are lost! Now you are going to get every p¡ss head knucklehead who posts here after your blood and guts.


Well anyway, talking of baiting, what do you think Sanjuro is doing when he is referring to me in a negative manner while hiding behind the "ignore". Why don´t you call him a troll as well.

You also implied that I was a troll. Haven`t you read any of my posts on the subject of kung fu! or do you only focus on my arguments with the forum´s glorified kickboxers?

At least you were 50% right as when it comes to kansuke he is a real troll. Of course our "un troll" friend Sanjuro ( and taai gihk yahn) so far has missed that fact. Oh, how I "wish" I was a grappler.

but sheesh, im a MMA guy and i didnt even know it. funny because i dont recall ever having been trained at any MMA gyms.

Maybe it is all in your "approach" and the company you keep.

personally, i never take any of this internet stuff seriously. its really mostly intertainment while im bored at work.

I am not surprised seeing the company you keep.

or just laugh my arse off at the rediculousness of any rediculousness i see.

So you have seen Sanjuro ronin´s YouTube videos as well? He breaks pieces of wood and you know, that just about completes his "kung fu resume"....

HW108

[Mr Punch]

My SPM teacher is the same way. He feels that even five of us is cutting it close.

My sifu was forced to leave his overseeing organisation for refusing to teach bigger classes: they wanted him to advertise, get shirts, get us to take sashes and get 20 plus students. He kept it to 8, and two of us he accepted as private students.

What was this thread about again?! Sanjuro's stubby?

[Lucas]

wow, you look past what is there sometimes I think. i dont remember calling you a troll.

you just need to calm down a little pal.

ive read your posts, and responded to a couple. some things you say i agree with and some I do not.

so you can pick this post apart as well and try to demonize me if you like, i dont care, its just childish

first of all, you dont know me, or who i keep company with. you also dont know my training, pretty obvious since you refer to me as a MMA guy.