Master Tony Ho push hands

**woliveri** · 01-30-2009, 10:36 AM

**Subitai** · 01-30-2009, 01:03 PM

I don't mean to say something negative about Master Tony Ho...

But what I can't stand is when "They" (ie the people getting demo'ed on) overly react and stomp the ground. More over it's a just a big ego stroke.

Time and again...the master is placing the DG's (ie Demo Guy) hands on his center and having him give resistance, he then displays how he can redirect and bounce back. But the Push is never Earnest!! Nor is it ever sudden and violent. How easy is that for a decent Tai Chi player to do? No problem.

The master is leaving himself open and subject to attack but all he really gets is a submissive partner whos just sitting back and waiting to recieve.

If he were a western teacher of any other insert "Race" here, he would be under much heavier scrutiny. That is a harsh truth.

It seemes as if in these modern times...Asian "Masters" rarely get tested...IE. have someone challenge their authority even if it's done in a more respectfull way. And I don't mean someone should MMA him either.

There's a clip of Chen Xiao Wang:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1jvYjfNy48

being tested on by a Taiwan dude. Notice how CXW, is not foolish enough to just give up his center...the DG would have to earn it 1st and he can't for the most part.

I'm not trying to "Knock" Master Ho. It's just the stomping of the DG is a big pet peeve of mine. It reminds me of all the crappy push hands videos out there where people are throwing themselves backward and the teacher did nothing.

Those things bring down Tai Chi imo.

"O"

**woliveri** · 01-30-2009, 02:12 PM

Subitai,

Thanks for the reply and points.

The so called "Demo Guy" is Master Liu Ji Fa and is a former Classmate of Tony's back in the original Wu Taiji days (Ma Yueh Liang, etc).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc31AqRyD-0

In the videos in my original post, Tony is 70 years old. I'm not sure why these guys do the "hopping" thing but it's a tradition I've seen over and over again.

I will say this, Tony's level is very high in my opinion that may not be apparent from the videos.

To be honest with you, I expected to see more from the Chen XiaoWang video you posted.

**shrub** · 01-30-2009, 05:56 PM

sorry, not very good demos

**Subitai** · 01-30-2009, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by woliveri

Subitai,

Thanks for the reply and points.

The so called "Demo Guy" is Master Liu Ji Fa and is a former Classmate of Tony's back in the original Wu Taiji days (Ma Yueh Liang, etc).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc31AqRyD-0

In the videos in my original post, Tony is 70 years old. I'm not sure why these guys do the "hopping" thing but it's a tradition I've seen over and over again.

I will say this, Tony's level is very high in my opinion that may not be apparent from the videos.

To be honest with you, I expected to see more from the Chen XiaoWang video you posted.

I posted the CXW vid to show that some people will not just sit there and let you do "Your Magic" so to speak. Like what that DG was doing to him. Or mabe he wasn't a Demo Guy...I don't know.

It all depends on familiarity, courtesy or perhaps locally accepted norms. But in some circles, if another dude or DG just pops off on you like that and you happen to be looking the other way, it can be considered extremely rude if not a down right challenge to escalate into a full blow fight.

I know if a dude did that to me with the intention of trying to test me or embarass me, i'd go ALL OUT on his but in a heartbeat. He'd have to be a really good friend or else.

Then again, if you look at the typical Aikido Demo where the DG comes at a Sensei with a HUGH CIRCULAR OPEN ARM moves...it's kinda like the other side of the coin.

Go figure...

**taai gihk yahn** · 01-31-2009, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Subitai

I posted the CXW vid to show that some people will not just sit there and let you do "Your Magic" so to speak. Like what that DG was doing to him. Or mabe he wasn't a Demo Guy...I don't know.

It all depends on familiarity, courtesy or perhaps locally accepted norms. But in some circles, if another dude or DG just pops off on you like that and you happen to be looking the other way, it can be considered extremely rude if not a down right challenge to escalate into a full blow fight.

I know if a dude did that to me with the intention of trying to test me or embarass me, i'd go ALL OUT on his but in a heartbeat. He'd have to be a really good friend or else.

Then again, if you look at the typical Aikido Demo where the DG comes at a Sensei with a HUGH CIRCULAR OPEN ARM moves...it's kinda like the other side of the coin.

Go figure...

well put; "compliance" takes on many forms - one can consciously be going easy due to the specific context (e.g. - not wanting to have someone else loose face, for whatever reason), or sub-consciously, meaning that if it is one's teacher and one is psychologically invested in the idea that your sifu necessarily has to always be able to toss you around effortlessly, that's another scenario;

of course, agreement is not intrinsically a bad thing, but one should be aware of what one is doing and why, IMPE;

**taai gihk yahn** · 01-31-2009, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by woliveri

I'm not sure why these guys do the "hopping" thing but it's a tradition I've seen over and over again.

my understanding is that, in theory, it helps "disperse" the "qi" that gets put into you; on a more mundane level, it seems to help in terms of lessening the shock of the kinetic energy that is delivered; I've seen some aikijujitsu guys do that as well;

of course, many people may do it just because they see their teachers do it, LOL...

**imperialtaichi** · 02-01-2009, 08:32 PM

Demos are just, "Demos". It is just for the purpose of demonstrating a view. It is neither good nor bad.

**woliveri** · 02-01-2009, 08:52 PM

Actually, these are not "Demos". They are videos of 3 former classmates getting together to try their skills against each other after many years, perhaps decades, of being apart. The ppl in the restaurant are a few friends and a couple of Tony's students. There's a reason I believe Tony posted these videos and it was not to gain students. If you are perceptive...... you may understand.

**imperialtaichi** · 02-01-2009, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by woliveri

Actually, these are not "Demos". They are videos of 3 former classmates getting together to try their skills against each other after many years, perhaps decades, of being apart. The ppl in the restaurant are a few friends and a couple of Tony's students. There's a reason I believe Tony posted these videos and it was not to gain students. If you are perceptive...... you may understand.

Hello Woliveri,

My statements on "Demos are just demos" is just a generalization, more in response to people stating the demo is not good or the DG is over cooperative. I apologize if my statement is over-simplified making it misleading.

My point is, the videos you posted are about a few people trying, testing and discussing techniques. Of course the DG is going to be coorporative! They are NOT real fights, challenges or competing with each other. No different from videoing a group discussing golf swings.

I think it is important that people watching youtube videos to understand what are discussions of techniques, and what are real fights. And for the purpose of discussing/demonstrating techniques, I though they were pretty interesting.

Thanks for posting them.

Cheers,
John

**woliveri** · 02-02-2009, 06:46 AM

Hi John,

Totally agree... thanks for your comments.

**Subitai** · 02-02-2009, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by imperialtaichi

Hello Woliveri,

My statements on "Demos are just demos" is just a generalization, more in response to people stating the demo is not good or the DG is over cooperative. I apologize if my statement is over-simplified making it misleading.

My point is, the videos you posted are about a few people trying, testing and discussing techniques. Of course the DG is going to be coorporative! They are NOT real fights, challenges or competing with each other. No different from videoing a group discussing golf swings.

I think it is important that people watching youtube videos to understand what are discussions of techniques, and what are real fights. And for the purpose of discussing/demonstrating techniques, I though they were pretty interesting.

Thanks for posting them.

Cheers,
John

Well..."Tit for Tat" I too was making a "General Observation" and then went on to say that I really don't like when... DG's of any sort OVERDO IT

As said previously, not meant as an affront to Master Ho.

I'm fully aware of the benefits of sharing in a group. Most things that are transferred in such places are hard to duplicate in Nuance...even over the medium of being video taped. There is a certain tactile feel that needs to be addressed.

Never the less and as a Generalization...If anyone has seen demos where people are just completely "hamming it up for the camera and throwing themselves backward" These things are not good for Tai Chi.

I beg for vigilance as teacher myself...it's hard enough to fight the "Nay-Sayers" let alone our own people.

"O"

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