The Way Kung Fu Was Trained in Prior Centuries

[BruiserBrody]

From what I have read, in previous centuries, it seems that new students would learn forms for years before moving on to other training. Is this true? If so, where would the teacher lead his student next? Would it move on to energy drills and sparring? And why were students only instructed to perform forms for the bulk of their early training?

[TenTigers]

One-for info on the forms-check the shaolin thread. It's an eye opener.
Two-forms, when they were taught, unless they were specifically for structural alignment, breath, power generation, etc were taught last, and many times only to lineage bearers, as sort of a "diploma." Drills and fighting were what was important.
The idea of forms takeing precedence over drills and fighting is a very recent innovation, and should be taken for what it is-something you step in when crossing a pasture.

[BoulderDawg]

From what I have read, in previous centuries, it seems that new students would learn forms for years before moving on to other training. Is this true? If so, where would the teacher lead his student next? Would it move on to energy drills and sparring? And why were students only instructed to perform forms for the bulk of their early training?

If you're talking about Kung Fu and the history in China there is no way to know how they trained. We can all make educated guesses and there will be people here who will tell you they know exactly what went on. But in reality there's been so much war, upheavel, revolution that 99% of any documentation has been lost.

[SPJ]

for most of us now and before

1. we practice single move all the time, solo, with props and with partner.

2. conditioning would be most of time, postures, hiting, kicking, with pads, bags, etc

3. free sparring is always part of the deal/practice.

--

forms or no forms.

[EarthDragon]

a simple answer to your question would be that a new student must prove himself worthy of the instruction. This could mean showing up everyday for months if not years before a teacher would feel obligated to show him something worth while.

I remember my friend Master Ting Fong Wong saying that his teacher in Canton would expcet them to do horse stance for the first year before anything else was shown....... then forms for a few nmore years then if they had the determination to stick around this is when the true teachings began. a way to weed out the masses

[Lucas]

a simple answer to your question would be that a new student must prove himself worthy of the instruction. This could mean showing up everyday for months if not years before a teacher would feel obligated to show him something worth while.

I remember my friend Master Ting Fong Wong saying that his teacher in Canton would expcet them to do horse stance for the first year before anything else was shown....... then forms for a few nmore years then if they had the determination to stick around this is when the true teachings began. a way to weed out the masses

My first tcma teacher went through this process. being orphaned at a young age, he was given to the temple that he was raised at in cambodia. although he was not permitted to learn the kungfu. he ended up staying in horse stance outside of the temple for as long as he could every day for months before he was allowed to enter and train. He was then trained by the grandmaster there until the master died and he came to america.

interestingly enough the master there had him cross trained in judo. its that mentality of the temple kungfu to cross train as a fighter. its somewhat common for temple ma'ists to study 'abroad' at other temples or by other monks. similar to a student exchange program

similarly he was put into thai boxing matches to test his skills as a youth teenager. he was trained there in several styles of kungfu, including shaolin kungfu.

[Shaolinlueb]

all you have to do is watch jackie chan, snake in the eagle's shadow. and thats pretty much how schools were taught back then.

[Pork Chop]

all you have to do is watch jackie chan, snake in the eagle's shadow. and thats pretty much how schools were taught back then.

err with the footprints on the ground & the mysterious texts?

[David Jamieson]

why would you want to train the way they did centuries ago?

there are much better ways now, better equipment etc. the qigongs are still qigongs, cardio-vascular is still that, general conditioning is still that and there are less convoluted ideas about how to maintain ones health these days.

run-jog
do calisthenics
kick,punch,lock,throw
lift weight
do task specific attribute development
do supporting attribute development

voila! just like they did it centuries ago!
there are no secrets, just do the work.

[golden arhat]

a simple answer to your question would be that a new student must prove himself worthy of the instruction. This could mean showing up everyday for months if not years before a teacher would feel obligated to show him something worth while.

I remember my friend Master Ting Fong Wong saying that his teacher in Canton would expcet them to do horse stance for the first year before anything else was shown....... then forms for a few nmore years then if they had the determination to stick around this is when the true teachings began. a way to weed out the masses

sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay

anyone with any sense would'nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck
people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance

what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?

[golden arhat]

it also depends what you mean by "in previous centuries"

how far back are we going

i have a theory that alot of modern forms came about of teaching many people at once to a low standard but for a good price

to teach a contact sport you need training partnetrs and a good deal of one to one time

to teach a form you need one person to show the form, and 50 people to do it together and pay you! ahah

theres nothign wrong with alot of the techniques (alot are very exagerated in their delivery though) a unch is a punch and a claw to the face is a claw to the face

i think before the focus became on making money and preserving traditions
it was probably trained with alot of individual techniques trained singly and incorporated into live sparring and 2 man drills consisting of a few moves each (not long coreographed sequences like you see of 2 man drills these days)

[Lucas]

sounds like a way of ensuring the stupid stay

anyone with any sense would'nt stick doing that for a year, you need bang for buck
people dont have time to just spend a few years doing forms and horse stance

what happens if you get attacked within that progression period?

they get their asses kicked, or they win. depends on how good the fighter is that attacks them. could just be a schmuck, because not everyone is a martial artists, assuming they arent, its an even fight.

generally this method was to ensure only the dedicated stay. of course i would never adhere to this. i wouldnt get taught if this were the case. were i raised in china in an atmosphere where this was the norm, i may be different.

many temples were and are still like this. they dont care want people just dropping by, soaking up some training then leaving. they want life long students. a lot of westerners have a problem grasping this old concept.

[WinterPalm]

My understanding was the opposite of this and that what you're talking about is stuff form movies.

Kung Fu is for fighting first and foremost and if it takes years of waving your hands in the air before you get to learn any actual combat stuff, you probably won't stick around for long.
Consider if people in the old China days had to actually fight all the time, they would want to come in and learn something off the hop...something they could potentially use later that day.

[golden arhat]

My understanding was the opposite of this and that what you're talking about is stuff form movies.

Kung Fu is for fighting first and foremost and if it takes years of waving your hands in the air before you get to learn any actual combat stuff, you probably won't stick around for long.
Consider if people in the old China days had to actually fight all the time, they would want to come in and learn something off the hop...something they could potentially use later that day.

exactly
china was (and is) a violent place!

[golgo]

err with the footprints on the ground & the mysterious texts?

Wasn't that "Spiritual Kung Fu?"