The Lineage of Yip Man

[Vajramusti]

what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?

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In many things specially internet kung fu discussions there can be multiple opinions on practically any subject. From what you have said in the past and what you seem to be learning the issue may not be important and in a way if one learns good wing chun it doesn't matter-unless one picks up the gosh awful marshland subject of wing chun history.
Ip man's wing chun in some ways is quite unique. He said , told his sons and some of his close students that he learned from Leung Bik when IM went to HK the first time. He didnt say that ona sign in front of his school and didn't take out an ad to that effect to the best of my knowledge and non one that I know of questioned him on that when IM was alive.Per the tradition of that time he listed his first teacher as his sifu, but he learned from others.
But some folks are skeptical. You can have any take on wing chun history that you want- it comes in 57 flavors. Shoot even now there are mysteries about who learned what from whom and for how long. You takes your pick in the history cafeteria.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie.

Rubbish. He's rolled with Carlos Snr, Rolls and Carlson in the Big Octagon In The Sky. Right now he's cornering WSL in his match with the recently arrived Helio.

maybe he would not have been able to be taken down

Good point. Takedowns and submissions are much more difficult when your opponent consists entirely of ectoplasm. OTOH, chain punching doesn't work all that well either.

No offence meant to the Gracies. Some of this conjecture, OTOH, deserves nothing but ridicule.

what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?

He's a pivotal figure in the "histories" of many YM lineages, as the elder son of Leung Jan. Willam Cheung's history, as just one example, loses (a lot more) credibility if it can be proved he did not exist.

However evidince for his existence is highly tenuous ... though the OP appears to have found osmething concrete in that regard.

As Joy said, WC history is a smorgasbord, and you and many (most?) others seem to have picked the bits that best fit the way they'd like things to be.

[chusauli]

Yip Man was great, and he was human. Chinese say Yin Shui Si Yuan - "drinking water, think of the source". He is honored for his teachings.

Personally, I think it is important we investigate what other students of Yip Man taught and discuss them. They are all part of a puzzle.

Whether or not he learned from Leung Bik is irrelevent; he learned and taught and we have what he passed down. That is enough.

Yuen Kay Shan was also great. I honor him as a great contributor and preserver of WCK. Too little is known about him here. Sum Nung did a great job in his time teaching and preserving the art in China.

Yiu Choi, who studied with Yuen Chai Wan and later Ng Jung So, can give us a missing link and glimpse of what was passed down to present, but his system has its unique features.

All of our ancestors, we can respect.

[Shadow_warrior8]

The main reason I posted the thread on Yip Man, Leung Bik, was that this information was not available to the west, and its all still in chinese. Only for those who really want to see the other side of the coin will bother to translate it.

I also wanted to show, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi and Yip Man were really legends we can look up to in our own path. Masters like 90 years old Gwok Fu lived to tell their tales and his own.

But its all just for bedtime stories, something to fall asleep to after a hard day of wingchun training.

[LoneTiger108]

The main reason I posted the thread on Yip Man, Leung Bik, was that this information was not available to the west, and its all still in chinese. Only for those who really want to see the other side of the coin will bother to translate it.

I also wanted to show, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi and Yip Man were really legends we can look up to in our own path.

Interesting point about people translating 'who want to see the other side of the coin'. This is happening more and more these days. Westerners trying to learn the dialect of their teacher/s.

Its been a while since I read any mention of Yiu Choi. The best source of info on Yiu Choi in the UK is Sifu Wai Po Tang http://www.martialartinstitute.com/ where he also mentions Yiu Kil (?)

Whatever, or wherever you come from, people can only really learn to appreciate what they have if we all learn how to share! Unfortunately for most westerners (non-chinese readers) we still have a very long way to go, as we may never fully understand what was taught if we can't understand the language that was used to teach.

All of our ancestors, we can respect.

I would hope so Chu Sifu.

Not to sound like the Orange mobile ad, but we are all part of everyone as everyone is part of us.

For anyone who has never seen this clip, it's an entire unedited piece of Ip Man performing the 108 MYJ. I only ever saw this once during the opening of the Tong in Foshan.

Respect aside, how did this end up on Youtube?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjqL9MdLj0k

[Vajramusti]

You can tell that Ip man was quite old and ill in that dummy video. There is some hesitation here and there.
But you can still see the dummy shaking. And he could still lift his leg and kick the dummy from the side given his age and health!! He apparently kicked a lot in earlier years.In Ip Ching's little book on his father he mentions how when Ip man bent over to get a newspaper at a restaurant, a thief tried to lift something from him and Ip Man shot out a rear kick and the thisf went flying backwards.

From time to time apparently Ip Ching has objected to stuff being out on U tube- but things do get by. I have seen that clip several times before.

A real curiosity :when will a well known wing chun business man release the oictures that wer made when Ip Man was giving sime lessons for the Hing Kong police.It will probably come out when the price is right.

joy chaudhuri

[bakxierboxer]

You can tell that Ip man was quite old and ill in that dummy video. There is some hesitation here and there.
But you can still see the dummy shaking. And he could still lift his leg and kick the dummy from the side given his age and health!!

Age and illness aside, his skill was still readily apparent.
I saw a lot of "give-aways" in evidence.

I also have a suspicion that some of the "hesitation" you mentioned had something to do with a "dislike" for that particular dummy....... appeared to complain about the position of the upper arms?

[hunt1]

Joy I was told Leung Ting bought those movies and pictures years ago.

[Vajramusti]

bakxierboxer: I am unsure about the real reason for the stoppages in doing the mok jong

hunt 1: yes I heard about that. He bought it apparently from an ex HK police person .
He showed some of it to a convention of his students in LA several years ago-probably will release them when the price is right.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

I also have a suspicion that some of the "hesitation" you mentioned had something to do with a "dislike" for that particular dummy....... appeared to complain about the position of the upper arms?

I hadn't heard that one before.

My belief is that, after all the changes and modifications and the natural ageing process Ip Man just simply 'forgot' what he was doing at various points. Not forgetting that this was (apparently) just some test footage that was never supposed to see the light of day let alone be available for everyone in the world to see! Unrehearsed, but still 'completed'.

Anyone know the name of the camera person?

But you can still see the dummy shaking. And he could still lift his leg and kick the dummy from the side given his age and health!!

Exactly my point. There is a precision there, even in his steps.

It's strange for me as I recently took up my old book from Uncle Joseph Cheng and it fits neatly with the Ip Man clip.

Out of interest, how does everybody explain the number of sets? How many? What are the general terms? Do other families use the same format?

[Vajramusti]

Lone Tiger-
Speculation. We don't know exactly who was there or who took the film besides Ip man's presence in the picture.. Could be Ip Chin. But Ip Chin would know. Ip Man turns to the the observer several times. Not necessarily forgetting things.
There are many possible motions on the dummy depending on whether one is passing on or practicing a form or whether one is working on applications and combinations. Ip Man himself tinkered with sections of the form at different times.
After looking at his student or observer. he may have decided which sequence of his form he was going to do or show to that observer.. He was not doing a performance for u tube or the u tube generation..

Joseph Cheng's dummy book is different in the details. I have it- misplaced- somewhere. A friend of mine learned from Cheng.

joy chaudhuri

[clam61]

this reminds me of another thread in this forum where people had questions about sum neng and yip man...about the 'rift' between them.

this is what i heard. you can believe it or not.


there was some question about whether there was a rift and what it was about.

there was a rift. it was about yuen kay san.

yip man and sum nung knew each other in canton and were good aquaintances/friends.

yip man was taught a few things from yuen kay san for a few months (Yip Man already knew WC). when yip man was in HK he used YKS' to bolster his credibility, except he said that he taught YKS. it finally got back to YKS later that YM claimed this. YKS basically told his student, Sum Nung to kick yip man's ass. Sum Nung followed his teachers wishes and challenged YM to a fight in private.

YM went in with his famous pak sau and Sum Nung neutralized it and in the end, he ended the fight with a choke on YM. YM said he gave up. that ended it.

Sum Nung liked to keep a low profile and so did YKS so the match was kept private. The 'beef' was squashed at that point.

Chinese say, one day as a Sifu, one life time as a father
And to honour the Sifu, the way, ancestors

These years I have heard many stories on Yip Man, whose decision to teach wingchun in Hongkong, and to Bruce Lee, is the reason why many even know of wingchun in the western World. However some spread negative stories like, Yip man didnt learn everything, Someone sent his student to beat up Yip man, He was taught the wrong forms, He wasnt a good teacher etc. He lied about Leung Bik, the elder son of Leung Jan whose only student was Yip Man, which explains the difference in simplicity and internal elements different from Chan Wah Shun Lineage

Here I present from China, what is said about him from the legendary 90yrs old Sifu Gwok Fu. In this video, he talks about Master Yip Man, Master Yuen Kay San, Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung, Bruce Lee's father, Dim Mak etc....
In the written piece accompanying the video, it is written he mentions Leung Bik

http://cache.qihoo.com/wenda.php?do=...BD%D3%BD%B4%BA
http://bbs.ttx.com.cn/dispbbs.asp?bo...&star=1&page=1

While I take somethings with a pinch of salt(I am just biased), but then again I wasnt there. I didnt sit in the same space as Yuen Kay San, Yip Man, Yiu Choi, Gwok Fu, the greats of Wingchun. He was there, trained, talked, had tea with them.
Rumours and stories from people present about people passed. Nothing can be verified. Master Gwok Fu who describes Master Yuen Kay San's art as Fast and Ruthless, said he matched him in Gor Sao. Someone said Master Yuen Kay San also learnt from Ng Chun So, but then again I wasnt there, and I might not believe, or want to believe what this Great Man said- yeah its silly, I know. Everything I have seen of Master Yuen and Master Sum Nung in China- where he is recognised and honoured as the most Traditional of Wingchun, from Sum Nung's students, sifus is mindblowing impressive! Anyone has a time machine?

By all current China records, Yiu Choi, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San were legends in Guangzhou-the 3 heros, even before Yip Man went to hongkong. They were seen together often, training together, even overlooking each other students. So the rumour something is missing in Yip Man, he didnt learn everything, students beat up an elder, presumes the masters didnt exchange, werent close. This would not make sense. They definately exchanged their arts, points, concepts. If your training buddy had a technique, theory you didnt have, you would either try to learn it right? One thing is for sure, they had great respect for each other and were amiable together, as the whole provice had for 3 of them.

In China, they still think the world of Yip Man, hence the chinese goverment build Yip man Tong, ironically, Yip Man became world wide famous in hongkong.

Leung Bik- In China, Leung Bik is a real person, there is historical record that he existed, the strongest evidence from Heshan Kulo Goverment(and these guys can detail anyone's life up the the yellow emperor and beyond). In a series of articles Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik. The Chinese goverment even detailed how many sons he had, and that they went to vietnam to teach. Also Sifu Garry recently posted 3 documents archived in Yip Man Tong, that Yip man said, Leung Bik handed to him.

http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/1...12112113-1.htm
http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/0...18175756-1.htm
http://gulao.heshan.gov.cn/html/2003...14102711-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2008...10111915-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2007...20174136-1.htm

The confirmation of Leung Bik explains to me, why Leung Sheung's art is soft, relaxed and powerful, like a women's art, as taught by Kenneth Chung, and described by my Sigung Peter Yang- that Leung Sheung taught him a internal soft art. Why Sigung Yip Chun always says to relaxed, to be sung, to use just enough energy. Why Master Hawkins and Bruce Lee said, Yip Man controlled them gently on their feet, in chi sao, with very slight movement or no movement, versus the more. In internal arts, a little energy is all it takes. From big movement to small movement, from small movement to no movement. According to Master Wang Xiang Zhai, that is the real movement

We chinese say, the tree that is big catches alot of wind. This is what I think of the rumours and stories of Yip man. In the latest Yip Man Movie, where in china, they are buzzing about, a scene says, Chinese lost of face is a No-No. Even if what is said is true, chinese loss of face is a No-No.

So I hope this will help those who are seeking to rubbish the name of Yip Man, now see there is another side of the coin, not found on youtube or english language. There is nothing missing from Yip Man Lineage. He did seek to simplify the art(as said by Master Yip Chun), for mass teaching maybe or maybe he wanted to follow in his Sigung's footsteps, Leung Jan, to present the essense of Wingchun
I have realised that most concepts are not repeated in Yip Man forms- hence only those loyal will learn everything, e.g chou dai choi in kulo, or taap choi in yahu- it is presented in Wooden Dummy. I just didnt know the name it was called in other lineages.

Here are my sharings on my ongoing project into Mainland China's Martial Arts. Of course we tend to believe who and what we want to believe
So I humbly present my small research project as a tribute to Legendary Yip Man.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yeah I heard that one, and I know where it comes from, and there is so much more in terms of "rumours" of conflict. I was told Ip Man was smashed with a Poi Pai Jeung in that fight you mentioned. Haha...
Not to take anything away from the people who started, spreading it.
I like these people.....and I know that they believe the person who told them....
But its history which cannot be verified- no video camera back in the day, no youtube. I personally dont believe it, and I have no sifus I talked to who has verified being there or heard it in the Hongkong lineage. It sounds more like My sifu is better than your Sifu kinda story. And yeah everyone wants to hear that their sigung, sifu is top brass.

Here is a mainland chinese posting on Yuen Kay San and their family/ lineage is huge over there.

蛇形永春内功拳阮济云在安南所传出—蛇形永春，永春内功拳。
阮奇山之兄长，追随师父郭保全（蛇形）(老洪拳五形之一)，冯小青（红船永春，当时年届七十） 等。
套路除部分蛇形拳路、红船永春拳路外，还有小练头，并无寻桥及标指之套路。

广州咏春拳亦称阮奇山咏春拳。
阮奇山先后追随师父郭保全（蛇形），冯小青（永春，当时年届七十），最后（后於叶问）追随吴仲 素。
套路有：蛇形拳路，红船永春拳路，小练头，加上了由吴仲素处学来之寻桥及标指之套路

Here's the translation,
Snake style internal wingchun was passed by Yuen Chai Wan.
Yuen Chai Wan learnt Snake Style- part of 5 elements Old Hung Kuen from Fok Bo Chuen. From 70 years old Fung Siu Ching, he learnt Red Boat Wengchun
Yuen Chai Wan's sets is divided into Snake Style portion of Wingchun, Red Boat Wingchun, there is Shil Lim Tao, but no Chum Kil or Bil Jee(as seen in Vietnam Wingchun, there is none)

Guangzhou Wingchun Yuen Kay San Wingchun
Yuen Kay San learnt from Sifu Fok Bo Chuen- Snake Style Wingchun, from 70 years old Fung Siu Ching- Weng chun, and learnt from Ng Chun So. The sets included Snake Style Wingchun, Red Boat Weng Chun, Shil Lim Tao, and the Chum Kil and Bil Jee, learnt from Ng Chun So after Ip Man(left???).
On the chinese posting above from China- it differs from what is said in the western world on YKS/Sum Nung about Ng Chun So(not to take anything away from this great Master) and I respect and trust the people who posted in the West.

Having talked and learnt from old Sifus alive today talking about their old masters, this kind of "thing" doesnt happen, because it doesnt go down well with Martial Code or the culture of the day. Even today, sending my student to challenge my best friend would be "hmmmm". The chinese loss of face is No-No, so that would have reaped huge reprecussions.
I have too much respect for the legendary Yuen Kay San, Sum Nung and Yip Man to believe any conflict would have warrented such actions.
They would have probably tag teamed to defend against/challenge the japanese occupation of that time, for calling them sick men of asia- Heros forged in times of need, oppression.

Can tell you are loyal to the Sum Nung/YKS camp, and its great. But when it comes down to, legend and stories e.g Master Gwok Fu's stories about him and Master Yuen. Even though he is the last link(if not the last) for Master Yuen, Master Yip and himself. He was there, in china all these years. Still the story is at best his version and it cant be verified what is what, so I take the stand, they were great people, legends for skills and conduct- PERIOD!!! That can be verified because there is documentation

[Vajramusti]

Nonsense!!!

[omarthefish]

The best any teacher can do is point the way or try to put you on the right path, YOUR path, in that regard, it really isn't about HOW much a teacher knows but how well he can help you find your path.

Story about Milton Erikson.

When asked how therapy works Milton Erikson once told this story:

So one day he found this horse grazing in his yard and wonders who it belongs to. He saddles up the horse and heads down the road not really guiding it anywhere. Every once in a while the horse wanders off the road to munch on some daisies or something and he pulls the reigns and sets it back on the road but other than that he gives it no direction. Eventually the horse wanders into this farm and a guy steps out and says, "Wow! You brought my horse back. How did you know it was mine?"

Erikson says, "I didn't really. You just keep putting the horse back on the road and eventually it finds it's way home."