The Lineage of Yip Man

[LSWCTN1]

some random thoughts regarding this

am i correct in thinking that the Kwok Fu you talk of is Ip Mans Fatsan student?

if so, would he really have been there to witness Ip Man practising/training with his peers?

if he was there, would he have been brought there if Ip Man was not an equal of both YKS and Yui Choi?

if Kwok Fu could handle YKS's gor sau, and IM was KF's sifu - why would YKS send his student to beat up the man who taught someone that YKS couldnt completely handle?

according to Yui Choi's son, Yui Choi had a hand in teaching Ip Man - as Yui Choi was his sihing under Ng Chun So. very probable that they practised together privately

Yui Choi first learnt under Yuen Chai Wan so YKS would have been a sibak to him, in those traditional times would YKS have practised together with him, no matter how close YKS and Ip Man were?

does Yui Choi system have luk sao? i ask because it was supposedly developed by IM and YKS together, so if YC was there he would surely have it, no?

in all honesty these were all greats and i dont think anyone will ever completely agree on everything regarding the collective histories, what is important is that we enjoy the art that we are lucky enough to have passed down to us

gotta run!

[Shadow_warrior8]

some random thoughts regarding this

am i correct in thinking that the Kwok Fu you talk of is Ip Mans Fatsan student?

if so, would he really have been there to witness Ip Man practising/training with his peers?

if he was there, would he have been brought there if Ip Man was not an equal of both YKS and Yui Choi?

if Kwok Fu could handle YKS's gor sau, and IM was KF's sifu - why would YKS send his student to beat up the man who taught someone that YKS couldnt completely handle?

according to Yui Choi's son, Yui Choi had a hand in teaching Ip Man - as Yui Choi was his sihing under Ng Chun So. very probable that they practised together privately

Yui Choi first learnt under Yuen Chai Wan so YKS would have been a sibak to him, in those traditional times would YKS have practised together with him, no matter how close YKS and Ip Man were?

does Yui Choi system have luk sao? i ask because it was supposedly developed by IM and YKS together, so if YC was there he would surely have it, no?

in all honesty these were all greats and i dont think anyone will ever completely agree on everything regarding the collective histories, what is important is that we enjoy the art that we are lucky enough to have passed down to us

gotta run!

You brought up a good example, if one did not understand or read cantonese one would ask these questions and perhaps misinterprete the story.

No, Master Gwok Fu said he was being taught by Master Yip Man, and Master Yuen was sitting right next to him. Apparently, this scene of Yip Man teaching, and Master Yuen being there was a common thing.

Next he said Master Yuen was ruthless and quick in his strikes when they played hands. I dont believe Master Yuen was out to do him in, maybe just test him. And he said, he was able to handle the exchange. It doesnt mean, he beat up Master Yuen. Or Master Yuen beat him down. He didnt say that. He also went on to say Master Yuen later told his peers that Gwok Fu was a skilled fighter.
We can exchange skills without doing the guy in right? In chinese martial arts, there is a saying, once you touch hands, the true kungfu will be reveal.

Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San, Yip Man were known as the 3 Heros(of wingchun) and famous in Guangdong. I personally believe they were great friends. And in those days where Wingchun was not a publicly taught system, and expensive to learn, 3 friends who had the honour to learn it, would exchange(Me thinks it was like a Turf Club, where the Elite hang out with their race horses)

All this comes from the video featured. I am not going to add any legend or stories to it. Like I said, I wasnt there, he lived it. And I respect all three of them.

History is funny, according to what you wrote, Yiu Choi learnt from Yuen Chai Wan, and then taught Yip man. However in the chinese post from Mainland china, Yuen Kay San learnt from Ng Chun So's chum kil and bil jee after Yip Man. So who is who, what is what? Hahahaha.....no one knows and honestly none of it matters, in the big scheme of things, except to those that insist their version of the story is right. Really if Ip man was beaten up, so what? And if he lost one exchange(who knows his mental state), maybe he had a off day, does that mean he is not a great master, or will not be? See there's where stories dont continue or dont teach.
In chinese we know as a warrior, winning and losing is common. What is important is what you do about it, after you have had a fall- to pick yourself up and better your skills. Thats really winning.
When I was training in army, they taught us, we can lose the battle, we cannot lose the war.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Now on to some interesting videos that are relaxing....
Donnie Yen as Ip Man

甄子丹"葉問"專訪(上) Ip Man: Interview with Donnie Yen part 1, 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciJR2AhN2FY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4zThOFUH1o

洪金寶"葉問"專訪 Ip Man: Interview with Sammo Hung
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC4tTjhXdeo

Donnie at Taiwan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15eebCg8mBI

Donnie Yen (甄子丹) on Ip Man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y67D9I5MRqg

[clam61]

yes i know everything is unverifiable.

however i would disagree that challenge matches not happening. your talk about loss of face is precisely why these things happened. besides, its not like YKS told SN to go cripple or kill YM. just to beat him in a sparring match. just sparring.

i dont know who you think i heard this from. i heard this from sum nung many years ago

i prefaced my story with "you dont have to believe it" or someting to that affect. im not pushing it. just saying what i heard.

Yuen Kay San learnt from Ng Chun So's chum kil and bil jee after Yip Man

i have no idea who ng chun so is...but could be. like u said. they probably talked and knew of each other. maybe they gave each other pointers. but i htink the point is that in the story (that i heard at least i know others instantly dont believe anything i said) yip man said that he taught YKS a lot...as in YKS was his sidai and below him in skill etc. that he "taught YKS everything he knows"--that sort of deal. perhaps he didnt at all...but back then it was all word of mouth so it probably got back to Canton from HK like a game of telephone and YKS got ****ed!

YKS had some pride...after all that is why Sum Nung named it YKS Wing Chun after his dying teacher expressed concern that he would be forgotten in the world of Wing CHun

again i dont really care. im just repeating what i heard.

Yeah I heard that one, and I know where it comes from, and there is so much more in terms of "rumours" of conflict. I was told Ip Man was smashed with a Poi Pai Jeung in that fight you mentioned. Haha...
Not to take anything away from the people who started, spreading it.
I like these people.....and I know that they believe the person who told them....
But its history which cannot be verified- no video camera back in the day, no youtube. I personally dont believe it, and I have no sifus I talked to who has verified being there or heard it in the Hongkong lineage. It sounds more like My sifu is better than your Sifu kinda story. And yeah everyone wants to hear that their sigung, sifu is top brass.

Here is a mainland chinese posting on Yuen Kay San and their family/ lineage is huge over there.

蛇形永春内功拳阮济云在安南所传出—蛇形永春，永春内功拳。
阮奇山之兄长，追随师父郭保全（蛇形）(老洪拳五形之一)，冯小青（红船永春，当时年届七十） 等。
套路除部分蛇形拳路、红船永春拳路外，还有小练头，并无寻桥及标指之套路。

广州咏春拳亦称阮奇山咏春拳。
阮奇山先后追随师父郭保全（蛇形），冯小青（永春，当时年届七十），最后（后於叶问）追随吴仲 素。
套路有：蛇形拳路，红船永春拳路，小练头，加上了由吴仲素处学来之寻桥及标指之套路

Here's the translation,
Snake style internal wingchun was passed by Yuen Chai Wan.
Yuen Chai Wan learnt Snake Style- part of 5 elements Old Hung Kuen from Fok Bo Chuen. From 70 years old Fung Siu Ching, he learnt Red Boat Wengchun
Yuen Chai Wan's sets is divided into Snake Style portion of Wingchun, Red Boat Wingchun, there is Shil Lim Tao, but no Chum Kil or Bil Jee(as seen in Vietnam Wingchun, there is none)

Guangzhou Wingchun Yuen Kay San Wingchun
Yuen Kay San learnt from Sifu Fok Bo Chuen- Snake Style Wingchun, from 70 years old Fung Siu Ching- Weng chun, and learnt from Ng Chun So. The sets included Snake Style Wingchun, Red Boat Weng Chun, Shil Lim Tao, and the Chum Kil and Bil Jee, learnt from Ng Chun So after Ip Man(left???).
On the chinese posting above from China- it differs from what is said in the western world on YKS/Sum Nung about Ng Chun So(not to take anything away from this great Master) and I respect and trust the people who posted in the West.

Having talked and learnt from old Sifus alive today talking about their old masters, this kind of "thing" doesnt happen, because it doesnt go down well with Martial Code or the culture of the day. Even today, sending my student to challenge my best friend would be "hmmmm". The chinese loss of face is No-No, so that would have reaped huge reprecussions.
I have too much respect for the legendary Yuen Kay San, Sum Nung and Yip Man to believe any conflict would have warrented such actions.
They would have probably tag teamed to defend against/challenge the japanese occupation of that time, for calling them sick men of asia- Heros forged in times of need, oppression.

Can tell you are loyal to the Sum Nung/YKS camp, and its great. But when it comes down to, legend and stories e.g Master Gwok Fu's stories about him and Master Yuen. Even though he is the last link(if not the last) for Master Yuen, Master Yip and himself. He was there, in china all these years. Still the story is at best his version and it cant be verified what is what, so I take the stand, they were great people, legends for skills and conduct- PERIOD!!! That can be verified because there is documentation

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yes that is a fair post, Who beat who, who lost to who, these kind of stories dont honour them, or wingchun since we cant verify.
and I think the best way to remember these Giants of Wingchun is by honouring them.

I have not heard of stories that Ip Man said alot, in fact, some say they wish he talked more about wingchun, talked more, clearer in explanations. My sigung said his father, tend to talk about other things, often not wingchun. Like him, Sigung Ip chun doesnt talk about wingchun much, away from the training gym. But having said that, maybe he did have a pint too much and he talked about something he shouldnt. Hahahahaha...sorry Yip man, didnt mean it. Just joking.....

[reneritchie]

FWIW, What Sum Nung told me:

After Yip Man went to HK, word filtered back to Fatshan that he (Yip Man) was being marketed as the only WCK sifu, and the sole holder of the art. This upset the other WCK people in Fatshan, so when Sum Nung was invited to teach a class in HK, they asked him to see Yip Man and find out what was happening.

Sum Nung and Yip Man went out to dinner, and Yip Man basically said it was some of his students being overly enthusiastic about the marketing, and he would set the record straight.

Yip Man also told Sum Nung he should stay in HK, because the border might get shut down. Sum Nung didn't want to leave his family, however, so went back for them and -- sure enough -- the Chinese border was closed and the West was cut off from all the WCK in mainland China.

[clam61]

and then sum nung got yip man in a choke hold.

jk

[chusauli]

It makes people excited to think that a chokehold was involved. I think we got a few bored people.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=clam61;917742]and then sum nung got yip man in a choke hold.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't have to be silly to praise Sum Nung. You detract from your effort.

Joy Chaudhuri

[clam61]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;917840]

and then sum nung got yip man in a choke hold.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't have to be silly to praise Sum Nung. You detract from your effort.

Joy Chaudhuri

not praising. making light of the situation.

[Vajramusti]

not praising. making light of the situation.[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the explanation. I have no problem.

joy chaudhuri

[Shadow_warrior8]

Just wanted to share something that makes all this who and who, who is better than who stories seem so small
Personal cultivation, that is the hard part.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090226...5a70e49a8.html

Ageing monk's devotion leaves deep mark on temple

Dawn has yet to break over a small temple in a Tibetan region of western China, but monk Hua Chi is already finishing an arduous daily ritual that has left its mark on both the man and the shrine. Skip related content

Hua, also a doctor of traditional medicine who believes he is about 70 years old, has been performing a strict daily ritual at this temple in the monastery town of Tongren, in Qinghai province, for nearly 20 years.

He has knelt in prayer so many times that his footprints remain deeply, perfectly ingrained on the temple's wooden floor.

Every day before sunrise, he arrives at the temple steps, places his feet in his footprints and bends down to pray a few thousand times before walking around the temple.

The footprints are three centimeters (1.2 inches) deep where the balls of his feet have pressed into the wood.

But the years are beginning to make their own mark on his body.

"During the first years I would pray 2,000 to 3,000 times a day. But I have grown older, so in recent years I have only done around 1,000 each day," he said, adding sheepishly that he could sometimes only manage around 500 in the cold of winter.

The ritual started with no specific aim, but with time it has turned into a project of self-salvation, said Hua, who hopes his dedication will be noticed and guarantee his soul a smooth transition to the afterlife.

According to Tibetan Buddhism, following death, the spirit goes through a three-stage process which determines whether it enters nirvana or returns for rebirth in one of the six realms of existence -- hell, human, animal, hungry ghost, demi-god or god.

Hua says he is getting closer to his goal.

"I reconstructed this temple and have prayed and walked around the temple all these times so that after my death my spirit will not suffer," he said.

Hua's devotion has not gone unnoticed by younger monks at the temple, which lies within the Rongwo Gonchen Gompa, Tongren's main Tibetan monastery.

The monastery, which dates from 1301, is home to hundreds of youngsters studying Buddhist scriptures.

Twenty-nine-year-old Genden Darji says he spent many days admiring Hua's efforts before finding the courage to step into his footprints.

As he carefully repeats Hua's movements, the young monk says he plans to carry on the ritual when the older monk stops.

"Every day I come here and every day I look at the piece of wood, and it has inspired me to continue to make the footprints myself," he said.

(Writing by Hanna Rantala; Editing by Ian Ransom and Miral Fahmy)

This peaceful and respecful story would be how I envisioned the meeting of Sum Nung and Yip Man to be, Junior to Senior, pretty much like how Rene described it to be.

[LSWCTN1]

You brought up a good example, if one did not understand or read cantonese one would ask these questions and perhaps misinterprete the story.

No, Master Gwok Fu said he was being taught by Master Yip Man, and Master Yuen was sitting right next to him. Apparently, this scene of Yip Man teaching, and Master Yuen being there was a common thing.

Next he said Master Yuen was ruthless and quick in his strikes when they played hands. I dont believe Master Yuen was out to do him in, maybe just test him. And he said, he was able to handle the exchange. It doesnt mean, he beat up Master Yuen. Or Master Yuen beat him down. He didnt say that. He also went on to say Master Yuen later told his peers that Gwok Fu was a skilled fighter.
We can exchange skills without doing the guy in right? In chinese martial arts, there is a saying, once you touch hands, the true kungfu will be reveal.

Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San, Yip Man were known as the 3 Heros(of wingchun) and famous in Guangdong. I personally believe they were great friends. And in those days where Wingchun was not a publicly taught system, and expensive to learn, 3 friends who had the honour to learn it, would exchange(Me thinks it was like a Turf Club, where the Elite hang out with their race horses)

All this comes from the video featured. I am not going to add any legend or stories to it. Like I said, I wasnt there, he lived it. And I respect all three of them.

History is funny, according to what you wrote, Yiu Choi learnt from Yuen Chai Wan, and then taught Yip man. However in the chinese post from Mainland china, Yuen Kay San learnt from Ng Chun So's chum kil and bil jee after Yip Man. So who is who, what is what? Hahahaha.....no one knows and honestly none of it matters, in the big scheme of things, except to those that insist their version of the story is right. Really if Ip man was beaten up, so what? And if he lost one exchange(who knows his mental state), maybe he had a off day, does that mean he is not a great master, or will not be? See there's where stories dont continue or dont teach.
In chinese we know as a warrior, winning and losing is common. What is important is what you do about it, after you have had a fall- to pick yourself up and better your skills. Thats really winning.
When I was training in army, they taught us, we can lose the battle, we cannot lose the war.

i wasnt attempting to make any 'wrong or right' posts, more just airing my thoughts - some of my questions would have contradicted each other had i have meant them in an 'i'm right' sense.

sorry for any confusion

the post you made initially is very thought provoking if you are interested in the history of wck, i have many more thoughts on it but none that require an answer, so i wont take up extra bandwidth!

all the best

[Shadow_warrior8]

No worries, just air your thoughts.
Like I said in another post, I was trying to present some material not known or unheard of in the western world. Its no secret, its just not translated, in english

In fact I had my thoughts about the interview, and was intially shocked, because he listed Bruce Lee's father was a robber, kidnapper and Wong Shun Leung and William Cheung tried to blackmail Yip Man into teaching them the wooden dummy otherwise they would quit, and Yip Man said- So quit.....

This old master was really bringing up some controversial stuff that would rock the very basis of Hongkong Wingchun, since we have great reverance for those people he mentioned. Hahaha...this granddaddy rocks.....

Me thinks its all just bedtime story stuff. And since everyone likes to hear who beat up who, who did who in, its just Martial Arts Entertainment Tonight.

[Shadow_warrior8]

So to add to the western world research on Leung Jan's Sons, irregardless of the dispute on their skills, lets establise them to have been real people first.

According to Yiu Choi Lineage, Leung Bik, Leung Chun existed and was taught wingchun
http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/...class=36&id=59
http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/...class=36&id=58

From the Heshan China Goverment(interestingly they also record one of Leung Jan's children going to vietnam to teach, is that why they have pin sung tsuan ma movements or looks like it?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3g7n_fTOmU )
http://www.heshan.gov.cn/Article/2010/201001/18754.html

Sifu Tam Woon Biu mentions Leung Jan's Sons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej...eature=channel

Sifu Fung mentions Leung Jan's Sons in this Kulo Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R92HZs4Aj40

This needs to be updated or removed entirely.
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...n=WCP.LeungBik