The Lineage of Yip Man

[Shadow_warrior8]

Here its is clearly stated in Yiu Choi lineage he did not teach Ip Man in the chart by Yiu Choi descendants
http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/...class=36&id=59

And the video states very clearly what was the relationship of these 3 people, Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San, Ip Man as stated by Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San descendants
in china were good friends, and brothers, the fatshan 3 heros.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRLJ50q4vZI

This needs to be deleted
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...?n=WCP.YiuChoi

[LoneTiger108]

Dare I say that this thread is 'one of the greats'?

Good, neat work here. And great to see stuff on Yiu Choi. Wasn't there also a Yiu Kil from Foshan, who was Wai Po Tangs Sifu? Anyone know of Wai Po Tang?

I have also heard that Lee Shing learnt from Yiu Choi. Anything published that actually confirms anything about Lee Shing?? It's a mystery I have been researching for some time...

[hunt1]

Wai Po began as a student of Simon Lau I believe. Yui Kil was Yui Choi's son.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Thank you, I got misled many years back by websites and believing

stories that didnt come from reliable sources which I suspect were ego motivated to push

their name up above others. Alot of the stories told in english in the west

and books are worlds apart from the truth, I reckon due to bad translation and also not

understanding the language, even cantonese spoken in Kulo is different from Hongkong,

with slightly different pitches.

Now I find going into china forums, goverment forums, straight to the families of

the lineages and descendants is the best way to go. It helps to read and write

mandarin.

This is the chinese website for the descedents of Yiu Choi, Yiu Kay and his 3 sons and states exactly the relationship of Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San and Ip Man as described.
姚祺长子姚永强、姚祺二子姚汉强、姚祺三子姚忠强
http://www.yiuchoiyiukay.com/about2.asp

By the way, the latest movie The legend is born, angered the families of yiu choi and yuen

kay san, because they were shown to be defeated by the japanese yet ip man was able to

hold his own. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRLJ50q4vZI The families said they

will consider legal action if the movie producers do not hold a press conference or make good

the name of their ancestors.

The familes of master yuen and master yiu, and the families

spoke up saying the three of them were like brother, taking care of each other, good friends.

This would have been a great time for them to reveal the dirty secrets that "ip man was once

beaten up by sum nung by a poi pai jeung", or "yuen kay san sent sum

nung to question him because he claimed he was grandmaster" or "ip man learnt from yuen

kay san" or that "ip man learnt the wrong footwork from chan wah shun" etc.... all the

stories. I have not found any of these stories from books, magazines, forums or the families

interviews in china. This leads me to conclude its not truth, or someone from the Ip, Yuen,

Sum family would have spoken up already. As you can see it the youtube clip, they dont take

insults to their lineage lying down, they aint no weak man of asia.

They were the 3 heros, wing chun brothers of fatshan, even Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San

descendants record this as so. This is THE HISTORICAL TRUTH. No one should ruin or distort

the story of their friendship and mutual respect

[Shadow_warrior8]

Bart cham dao

Here we see a edited video that Master Lun Gai said Ip Man didnt teach pole and

bart cham dao in Fatshan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blv7B...next=1&index=7

Here we see a non edited video that Master Lun Gai clearly states Ip Man taught

him the bart cham dao, multiple times, the translator clearly doesnt do any wingchun(she

doesnt even know who is ip man) so there was no reason for them to have a hidden motive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoHHV...eature=related

[chusauli]

What's great is Lun Gai says, "Yip Man never spoke of Leung Bik. Only his Si Hing, Ng Jung So."

This could be correlation that the story of Leung Bik was made up. The story of Yip Man being a "traitor" learning under Leung Bik (learning the alleged "traditional" version passed down from Leung Jan), why would he not teach his students in Fut Shan? Yip Man made no mention of Leung Bik to his original mainland students...

The second video Lun Gai does not exactly state where he learned his Bart Jaam Dao from, whereas in the first video, he states, Yip Man did not teach the Bart Jaam Dao in Fut Shan, only the 3 forms, Jong and 6.5 point pole. No knives. From where do the Bart Jaam Dao techniques Lun Gai now teaches derive? I listened to the Mandarin and Cantonese speaking translators, and they seemed confused and not quite explaining the English question to Lun Gai, nor was Lun Gai 100% explaining. from my understanding, I assume Lun Gai got his knife methods from the WCK hands and forms, learned from Yip Man, as the translators and Lun Gai were discussing.

[chusauli]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2zn...eature=related

Yip Man Chum Kiu (incomplete) and Muk Yan Jong (pretty complete) in Futshan (Foshan) - although the moves are slightly different from the HK version, you can see all of Yip Man's signatures to the Jong.

I saw Derek Frearson and Mark Hobbs versions when I visited the UK.

It is obvious Yip Man revised the teachings in HK. The Futshan Jong set looks a lot like Chu Shang Tin's set, perhaps a little like WSL's. William Cheung follows almost the same pattern and juxtaposition as Chu Shang Tin, minus the TWC signatures. So it is an authentic Yip Man set. Futshan and Chu Shang Tin has less repetition than Leung Sheung's set, which perhaps is a Leung Sheung teaching of balancing left and right. It is of course, more crude than say Moy Yat's, Ho Kam Ming's, Wong Long's (which I saw from John D. and Robert Yeung in Hawaii), and Koo Sang's sets, which have more or less the same elements as in Yip Chun and Yip Ching's (and Leung Ting's) sets.

Interesting evolution.

[MysteriousPower]

Yip Man's been dead for over 35 years, and Yuen Kay Shan's been dead for over 50. We are never going to get the "truth" about what happened between them. What we do get is a lot of claims on websites, some of which provide such amazing levels of detail (and flowery prose which one is only able to encounter in martial arts novels) which even the participants themselves may be hard pressed to supply.
It would be more fruitful to pursue what kind of kung fu a nearly penniless, frail, old man possessed, which blossomed into one of the most popular Chinese martial arts in the world. One honors one's teachers by trying to achieve to the utmost within one's own abilities what those teachers taught, not by giving lip service and showing up at the gravesite of famous people for photo ops.
By all accounts from Yip Man's own students, his abilities were formidable. I have not heard of one single account in decades of reading, that one of his students claim to have bested his teacher, or any claims of "I can take the 'old man'". Instead one hears "the 'old man' had a heavy punch". This is unlikely to be modesty or deference to the teacher because among Yip Man's students (aka "grandmasters") is no lack of egos. So why is that the case? This man was close to 60 when he started teaching in Hong Kong. His pictures suggest he was never muscular like the actor who portrayed him in the recent movie. I doubt he could qualify for any Olympic event, let alone win one. So how could a frail old man, non-athletic type with no upper body strength be able to convince younger, stronger, heavier, faster, athletic types to become his students and stay loyal for decades? Was he a cult leader? Did he come up with some novel theory of the universe which so mesmerized his followers? Were these students (aka grandmasters) idiots? Or did he just reach a level in an art supposedly created by a small, weak, female such that even without muscles, he was able to overcome bigger, stronger, faster opponents? If the latter, how did he do it?
Can you, using your own Wing Chun, do that? If you can, congratulations. If not, why not?
Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.

Unfortunately this statement is false because of Yip Man's nickname as "the old man". Old men do not spar full contact with their students. What exactly did he best his students in? Chi sao probably which we have all decided is just a drill and not a true test of fighting skill. These stories are such bs. More than likely Yip did not do much sparring with his students and if any
sparring or chi sao occured his students were polite and let him get the best. Why do you all keep spinning these unverifiable myths?

[Liddel]

Old men do not spar full contact with their students

These stories are such bs. More than likely Yip did not do much sparring with his students and if any

'Probably" and "more than likely" lol... your a victim of your own criticism bro.

My Teacher was the assistant to Lok Yiu for many years and got lots of one on one training with Ip. He's recalled many occasions exchanging punches with 'the old man'... no head shots but all out sparring similar to that of karate kumate. Not bad for a 60(ish) year old. Most couldnt touch him and if you did it was while you were getting your leg stomped or a heavier action as your glanced him lol. Most of the time you were trying hard and he was slapping your chest, good control huh.

Fairly common between teacher and students in anything.

Back in those days Gor Sau was controlled full contact sparring albeit with no head shots and believe it or not you had to have three fights under your belt to move on at levels of the system, oh how the standards have changed

Why do you all keep spinning these unverifiable myths?

People love stories, but most dont know someone who has first hand experience cause they are not around.

There are stories from witnesses about Ip kicking a guy at a football match for standing on his clothes and starting S h i t, another where a thief tried to steal a pen... my teacher was present for an altercation between a taxi driver and Ip.

The guy was not a god, but he wasnt a nambie pambie expert in chi sau slap hands either, he was a Wu shu man whos probably rolling in his grave at the state of Guilo VT today

According to my teacher who knew him he was upset at loosing control of his school even when he was alive, quite sad really

DREW

[Shadow_warrior8]

What's great is Lun Gai says, "Yip Man never spoke of Leung Bik. Only his Si Hing, Ng Jung So."

This could be correlation that the story of Leung Bik was made up. The story of Yip Man being a "traitor" learning under Leung Bik (learning the alleged "traditional" version passed down from Leung Jan), why would he not teach his students in Fut Shan? Yip Man made no mention of Leung Bik to his original mainland students...

The second video Lun Gai does not exactly state where he learned his Bart Jaam Dao from, whereas in the first video, he states, Yip Man did not teach the Bart Jaam Dao in Fut Shan, only the 3 forms, Jong and 6.5 point pole. No knives. From where do the Bart Jaam Dao techniques Lun Gai now teaches derive? I listened to the Mandarin and Cantonese speaking translators, and they seemed confused and not quite explaining the English question to Lun Gai, nor was Lun Gai 100% explaining. from my understanding, I assume Lun Gai got his knife methods from the WCK hands and forms, learned from Yip Man, as the translators and Lun Gai were discussing.

This thread was about factual truth. This is exactly why I do things in great detail from all families, show historical evidence of interviews and even goverment text like Heshan China Goverment.

I would like to see physical evidence that he was called a "traitor". Given Ip Man standing now in china, I would be very keen to know the source of your information,an interview or written statement. And if so, why is it not mentioned by his good brothers Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San whose families have come out to state their relationships and standing so opening? Why is lun gai and kwok fu respected as legends in fatshan? Can a "traitor" be named one of the 3 heros of fatshan as stated by his wing chun brothers families or have a china monument build for him in fatshan by the goverment? Surely this kind of statement will not go well with many people in china, hongkong. If by learning from more than one sifu we are traitors, then we find many greats past and present, legends, all guilty of being "traitors"
It is a known fact Master Sum Nung, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi, all these legends learnt from more than 1 sifu amongst many other great people.

I dont have any video that said that. And again thats exactly why I go to multiple sources of information so we do have this kind of situation where the good name of ip man is tarnished.
They were not confused. Its very clear that they asked several times if ip man taught him bart cham dao. The first round he said he learnt it when he was very young. The whole interview was largely about this 1 question. This translator wasnt very good, so I will do part of the job here.
This is my mother tongue mandarin and cantonese, so I will ask any other speaker to tell me which point he claimed ip man didnt teach him the bart cham dao.

The gist of the questions
English: Sifu thinks Sil lim tao is the most important? And also communication
Cantonese: Its normal ways of communication.
English: Where did he first learn his bart cham
Cantonese: I dont remember
English: It wasnt Ip man, it was someone else?
Chinese: Do you remember? Was it Yewen Sifu?
Cantonese: I learn it when I was very young
Cantonese: Was it very fast?
English: Its very important, Mark ask me to ask try and find out where did he really learn his bart cham dao?
Chinese: He says its very important UK siheng wants me to make sure whether how to learn the knives techniques?
English: So Ip man showed him some bart cham?
Chinese: He wants me to make sure it was Ip Man that taught knives
Cantonese: Was it really Ip Man Sifu that taught the knives?
At 4.05
Lun Gai: yes it was ip man sifu

To question leung bik
We must discredit the Chinese goverment who have been keeping historical
records of everyone substantial since goodness knows when.
And master tam from chan yiu ming lineage , and master fung from kulo and yiu choi
descendants because they state it on their website.
但至梁之授徒习武者，实不多人，因梁本是文质彬彬，如书生者，实不欲授武于人，恐 后辈动辄存戒备。故只授儿子梁春、梁壁、陈华顺（即找钱华）与猪肉店主梁桂者也。
Leung Bik existence was a fact, widely known in china it seems.

[hunt1]

Robert first to say that stories are just that I don't care much one way or the other however attempts to discredit the Leung Bik story must first discredit Jiu Wan.

He told his students including his son,this was in the 60's, that he became a student of Ip because the wing chun Ip did with him in HK was different and Ip's skill was higher than he had shown or performed in Fushan. When he asked Ip about this Ip told him the differences were what he learned from Leung Bik.

Jui Wan knew Ip well is Fushan they were friends and had worked out together Jui Wan would certainly have known what Ip did in Fushan and what was different in his Hk teachings.

Who knows the truth behind so many old stories but Jui Wan is certainly at least as credible if not more so than anyone saying the story is false.

Also not talking about LB does not mean there was no LB. He didn't talk to Jui Wan about him in Fushan either. Not talking about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Robert first to say that stories are just that I don't care much one way or the other however attempts to discredit the Leung Bik story must first discredit Jiu Wan.

He told his students including his son,this was in the 60's, that he became a student of Ip because the wing chun Ip did with him in HK was different and Ip's skill was higher than he had shown or performed in Fushan. When he asked Ip about this Ip told him the differences were what he learned from Leung Bik.

Jui Wan knew Ip well is Fushan they were friends and had worked out together Jui Wan would certainly have known what Ip did in Fushan and what was different in his Hk teachings.

Who knows the truth behind so many old stories but Jui Wan is certainly at least as credible if not more so than anyone saying the story is false.

Also not talking about LB does not mean there was no LB. He didn't talk to Jui Wan about him in Fushan either. Not talking about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This is good information. No where I have heard this, so its interesting. I have learnt something today. Thank you.

There was a reason for the 8mm filmed, that we see today. Even though he was dying from cancer and couldnt even do bart cham dao, lok dim bun or bil jee.
Ip man knew many out go out and say he learnt this and that, sole inheritor, this is ip man style etc...., my sigung ip chun and ip ching and sifu have repeated this to their students.

What is ip man kungfu? it is what you see, the only footage available of ip man. How did ip man a frail skinny looking man do kungfu, we must look at nei gung training(which includes structure, tendons, liagaments, coiling, opening closing, yi nim, kung lik etc...). This is still very much a hardly practiced activity.

yet it doesnt mean we cannot interprete it the way we see fit, Ip Chun Sigung also said, people play kungfu, its not kungfu playing people. And Ip Ching Sigung also clearly tell others he changed the punch in Bil Jee and he did ask him father.

Ip man said if you change it, and people acknowledge(agree or are okay) it, its okay. Basically we are all unique. You are doing your own wingchun, not anyone elses.

[chusauli]

So we have a story of Leung Bik and we can think several things as possible:

1) There is a Leung Bik and he taught Yip Man as the story goes...
2) Lee Man wrote some fictional accounts of Yip Man and Leung Bik and these got circulated widely through HK newspapers
3) Yip Man attributed his own awakening and understanding to Leung Bik, but may not have studied with Leung Bik
4) There is something other than these thoughts/stories

[hunt1]

Personally of all the stories I have heard the one I heard from Moy Yat I think maybe closest to the truth if only because it fits all the observable facts is a nice simple manner.

It wasn't Leung Bik but Fung Wah and he had gone with Yip to vist him. LB was used for marketing since few would have heard of Fung Wah or known he was Leung Jans student and Yip was in need of money. They met after Yip fled to Hk in 49.

This story would explain much. Why the WC he taught in Fushan and HK were different. Why in HK his WC changed from what he taught his first students which was very close to his Fushan WC. Yip did tell several students about Fung Wahs skill and seeing him break dummy arms. It also explains both the LB story being made up and still learning different methods from another student of Leung Jan

Of course one might think it is to neat a package.

[anerlich]

By the way, the latest movie The legend is born, angered the families of yiu choi and yuen kay san, because they were shown to be defeated by the japanese yet ip man was able to hold his own. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRLJ50q4vZI The families said they

will consider legal action if the movie producers do not hold a press conference or make good the name of their ancestors.

LOL, That's a pretty pathetic basis for a lawsuit. If you can sue someone who portrays your ancestor as a loser in a work of fiction only loosely based on fact, IMO the legislators need to be whacked firmly about the head.

Maybe they should sue the producers of Ip Man for making him look better than YC and YKS.

IMO such legal action makes their ancestors look even worse, as the manifest evidence is that the ancestors' offspring turned out to be idiots.