Northern Mantis Groundfighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys need to remember that ground fighting and ground grappling are not the same thing.
Technically speaking, ground fighting should INCOMPASS all, striking, grappling, weapons, while on the ground.
Fact is, not CMA covers ground grappling to the extend of Judo, much less BJJ or submission grappling.
And in terms of total ground fighting, those syetms that do train it are still, probably, far behind the curve compared to modern MMA and Vale Tudo oriented systems.
The issue being the use of weapons while downed that seems to be, currently, only addressed in a full contact environemnt by the Dog Brothers.

[EarthDragon]

Mantid1 LOL now that was funny.....

notanexit,
If it was there,why did'nt any of the cma guys beat Royce Gracie in the 90's(when there were'nt many rules) when this UFC/MMA thing was getting started?

I dont think this is fair question as it has to do to much with the skill leve of the fighter and not the style. I saw a TKD in the UFC kick someone, knock them out and won the bout.. this was becuse of the fighter not the style.

Same goes for tank abbott, hes just a tough ba$tard with no real formal training but he whoops a$$ with the best of them.

[MasterKiller]

Mantid1 LOL now that was funny.....

notanexit,
If it was there,why did'nt any of the cma guys beat Royce Gracie in the 90's(when there were'nt many rules) when this UFC/MMA thing was getting started?

I dont think this is fair question as it has to do to much with the skill leve of the fighter and not the style. I saw a TKD in the UFC kick someone, knock them out and won the bout.. this was becuse of the fighter not the style..

A TKD fighter kicking someone is representative of the style. There were no CMA fighters using ground techniques because ALL CMA technqiues, that were not borrowed from Judo or Jiu-Jitsu, involve attacking someone who isn't following you to the ground--lots of sweeps, upkicks, etc... But no ground grappling for position. Even CMA ground submissions are based on one guy standing or sitting on the grounded opponent.

You can argue that it makes sense for guys to have developed ground fighting, but there is absolutely NO PROOF before the 1936 publication of "National Methods of Self Defense" of CMA ground tactics resembling BJJ, Judo, or Jiu-Jitsu, which means those techniques were probably borrowed.

[Three Harmonies]

Precisely!

[shirkers1]

listen the only thing I know is jake has cudies and I don't want to roll with him any way.. just sayin' ... it's science.

[EarthDragon]

hardwork,
My apologies hardwork, and i read your posts and you are correct nothing you have said on THIS board was out of line or trollish IMHO, but because you came and posted on this board unfortunley others like dale kansuke followed... I am not saying its your fault at all.... as what these guys (with nothing better in their lives do) is to wake up and click on your name look at where you posted last and jump all over you the first chance they get ...

these guys must be in love with you to spend thier days just waiting to see where you post... must be nice to be that popular. remember in hollywood bad publicity is still publicty you must be someone for them to talk about you.. check their genders they might be girls or just fans

But seriously... I run a night club every weekend on the chip strip 40 bars all on the same street and the other week I had to stop a friend from comming in because of the crowd he was with... he said Mike you know me I aint gonna start any trouble.. I said I know YOU wont but your boys a punk and i either stop him from comming in now or I wait till he gets drunk and i throw him out later and i dont want to get my shirt dirty so i told him come back when hes not with stupid...

do you understand my point hardwork?

[Hardwork108]

Question.If there is a extensive groundfighting curriculum in cma,then why are we having this discussion?If it was there,why did'nt any of the cma guys beat Royce Gracie in the 90's(when there were'nt many rules) when this UFC/MMA thing was getting started?Even though cma was here in the U.S. way before mma,we are now judged by their standards.I have not seen a mantis specific groundfighting game,the little I know is bjj.If there is mantis ground game,I would like to see it.

I don`t think that anyone is saying that there is an "extensive" groundfighting curriculum in CMA. I believe that some of us are saying that some styles (major styles?) address groundfighting.

I would even add that the reason that some so called Kung fu practitioners have lost in MMA contests has more to do with the fact that they had not properly mastered the stand up aspects of their arts, rather than any "lack" of groundfighting techniques in TCMA.

I am talking about aspects such as proper rooting, power generation, breathing,Iron Palm/shirt and a more than a superficial understanding of the principles and contexts of ones particular style.

I believe that kung styles are by design stand up fighting systems. Some styles seem to address the groundfighting scenario as a last resort tactic. However, the problem nowadays specially with the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenom (much larger than many people think),is that even the stand up skills are not properly trained, leading to the abscense of some or all of the aspects that I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

It seems that the stand up aspects of kung fu are trained incompletely in most schools (McKwoon phenomenom) nowadays and I believe that this is a fundemental fact that has to be considered when one is, in anyway, discussing the effectiveness of TCMAs.

[Hardwork108]

hardwork,
My apologies hardwork, and i read your posts and you are correct nothing you have said on THIS board was out of line or trollish IMHO, but because you came and posted on this board unfortunley others like dale kansuke followed... I am not saying its your fault at all.... as what these guys (with nothing better in their lives do) is to wake up and click on your name look at where you posted last and jump all over you the first chance they get ...

these guys must be in love with you to spend thier days just waiting to see where you post... must be nice to be that popular. remember in hollywood bad publicity is still publicty you must be someone for them to talk about you.. check their genders they might be girls or just fans

But seriously... I run a night club every weekend on the chip strip 40 bars all on the same street and the other week I had to stop a friend from comming in because of the crowd he was with... he said Mike you know me I aint gonna start any trouble.. I said I know YOU wont but your boys a punk and i either stop him from comming in now or I wait till he gets drunk and i throw him out later and i dont want to get my shirt dirty so i told him come back when hes not with stupid...

do you understand my point hardwork?

Thank you for your post.

I do understand your point however, I believe that it would be best for everyone here to ignore Kansuke`s provocative behavior. I am ignoring it after all. If he ends up talking to himself in every board, outside the main one, then I am sure that even he will get the message. Or at best we won`t get the back and forth trolling that happens on the main board.

Otherwise we end up giving him and his forum friends more power than they deserve.

What do you think about this? PM me if you like.

[shirkers1]

I don`t think that anyone is saying that there is an "extensive" groundfighting curriculum in CMA. I believe that some of us are saying that some styles (major styles?) address groundfighting.

I would even add that the reason that some so called Kung fu practitioners have lost in MMA contests has more to do with the fact that they had not properly mastered the stand up aspects of their arts than any "lack" of groundfighting techniques in TCMA.

I am talking about aspects such as proper rooting, power generation, breathing,Iron Palm/shirt and a more than a superficial understanding of the principles and contexts of ones particular style.

I believe that kung styles are by design stand up fighting systems. Some styles seem to address the groundfighting scenario as a last resort tactic. However, the problem nowadays specially with the Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenom (much larger than many people think),is that even the stand up skills are not properly trained, leading to the abscense of some or all of the aspects that I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

It seems that the stand up aspects of kung fu are trained incompletely in most schools (McKwoon phenomenom) nowadays and I believe that this is a fundemental fact that has to be considered when one is, in anyway, discussing the effectiveness of TCMAs.

where do I begin...

I would even add that the reason that some so called Kung fu practitioners have lost in MMA contests has more to do with the fact that they had not properly mastered the stand up aspects of their arts than any "lack" of groundfighting techniques in TCMA.

wrong... even a well skilled tma guy that has a "strong" stand up WILL NOT DO WELL IN AN MMA MATCH!!! Or at least if they are fighting an individual with any type of cross training. Much like a well skilled boxer not doing well in mma with only their striking background. mma is titled mixed martial arts for a reason.

I am talking about aspects such as proper rooting, power generation, breathing,Iron Palm/shirt and a more than a superficial understanding of the principles and contexts of ones particular style.

come on now... this is comical... iron palm will do little for you in a sporting aspect.

I do agree however that most of these schools don't even teach basics correctly or to the extent that they need to be. They are worried about quantity instead of quality. When I trained I didn't want 14 forms etc, I just wanted the basics and that's what I worked on and drilled into the ground. What is it that I was going to use? I wasn't going to pull a tactic out of laandzeed at a whim while in a conflict.. it's the basics that matter, you fight how you train period.

[Hardwork108]

wrong... even a well skilled tma guy that has a "strong" stand up WILL NOT DO WELL IN AN MMA MATCH!!! Or at least if they are fighting an individual with any type of cross training. Much like a well skilled boxer not doing well in mma with only their striking background.

But yet there have been strikers (none TCMA) who have knocked out MMA ists before they had to take the fight to the ground. For example Vovchenchin (spelling?).

Having said that, maybe I should have expanded my scenario to real fights as well. After all, many MMA advocates here see MMA contests as a realistic reflection of the effectiveness of a fighting art.

mma is titled mixed martial arts for a reason.

I think that the point of this thread would imply that so are TCMAs except for the fact that individual styles of kung fu train the different fighting aspects/scenarios within individual principles and concepts of those given styles.

come on now... this is comical... iron palm will do little for you in a sporting aspect.

I agree that Iron Palm`s forte is not the sporting arena but again it would give one the extra "penetration" and more when you think about the earlier bareknuckle MMA contests.

Furthermore, IP was just one aspect of kung fu that I mentioned in my previous post.

I do agree however that most of these schools don't even teach basics correctly or to the extent that they need to be.

Of course they don't and hence the bad reputation of TCMAs.

They are worried about quantity instead of quality.

Exactly!

When I trained I didn't want 14 forms etc, I just wanted the basics and that's what I worked on and drilled into the ground. What is it that I was going to use? I wasn't going to pull a tactic out of laandzeed at a whim while in a conflict.. it's the basics that matter, you fight how you train period.

I see your point even if I believe in the importance of forms training in a hollisitic TCMA training program.

[Kansuke]

Earthdragon

It is just to difficult to deal with a guy like kansuke. I have done some research into this gentlemen. His name is really Dale. In fact they recently made a movie about his life. This is a trailer to his movie...and I think he is much like others on forums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANjenc4W1_Q

Hey kansuke....if your dad wont help you with your car insurance this year...maybe we can take a collection up for you the board?

Who the hell is 'Dale' and what the hell are you talking about?

????????????????????????????????????

[BeiTangLang]

enough. if you want to idle chat, pm people. stick with the topic.
~BTL

[Oso]

wow, something dragged shirkers1 out of the closet....

[KwaiChangCaine]

Aren't trolls little guys that live under a bridge?

[yu shan]

IMO, this topic was well worth it to bring our brother Shirkers1 out of retirement, welcome back.

BTW, after looking at your photo bucket thingamajiggy.. are you in the porn industry.

So to keep on topic, my ground fighting days are over. Busted shoulder that is hanging on by a thread.