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Thread: Northern Mantis Groundfighting.

  1. #16
    Jake,
    not to disagree as I said my teacher may have very well added ground work to 8 step to prepare us for the octogan, but I found this article on a webiste as I have found hundreds (too many to list here) but there are many about mantis ground fighting.


    When a Seven Star Praying Mantis practitioner gains experience against other styles of fighting then he can apply the principles and concepts of his system to overcome each type of fighting approach. This includes, for example, grappling on the ground. Once the skills of a ground-grappling stylist are understood the principles and concepts of Seven Star Praying Mantis, such as redirection, joint manipulation, pressure point attacks, and trapping tactics can be employed to successfully neutralize and defend against this fighting range.

    and robert (mantis 108) wrote this

    Beside the 64 Sau Fa, TCPM also uses the Ground Mantis (Tei Tong Long) to train for ground fighting situations. This set has a section of sisscors legs (2 - 4 0f them) which I believe is where all the ground fighting techniques are hidden in. There is a believe that every Mantis set has a two mened mirror set. Currently only 2 men Bum Bo set remains. It is quite possible that the Ground Mantis's two mened set was lost as well. Personally, I think Mantis were one time very formidable amongst other styles was that they trained with a partner at all times. By this simple training practice, they gain the benefit of realistic drills (full speed and power) over and over again. Can you not be good if you are at it every day 2 to 3 hours constant drilling like that? Isn't it why the Boxing, KickBoxing, and NHB people critize Kung Fu. Somewhere along the line our training practices were changed. Isn't it time for us Kung Fu people
    to look into this seriosly again?


    so to say there is NO record of ANY CMA have a comprehensive curriculum for ground combat is false.....
    KUNG FU USA
    www.eightstepkungfu.com
    Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
    Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
    Wu style Taiji Chuan



    Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."

  2. #17
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    Again, once more, their is a difference between having a few moves that you do when someone is STANDING ABOVE YOU, and their being a set curriculum for ground combat (TWO people are engaged on the GROUND!! NOT one standing above the other!).
    Robert has admitted that the majority of the ground stuff he does with TWO PEOPLE on the ground is drawn from BJJ, and Sambo. I assume he has trained some with guests and what not in his hometown.
    Neither of what you offer is viable. It is simply people stating an opinion, not fact. EVERYONE and their brother in the CMA community is talking about adaptation and how ground fighting has "ALWAYS" been in their curriculum. That is why it has been seen in demos, and videos, and tournaments all these years
    These are people simply trying to mask their fear of the unknown with a veil of a false reality.
    I have a foot in both worlds, but I tell you something... the grappling / BJJ / Sambo / Judo community thinks that CMArtists are a ****ing joke! And frankly it has all been self perpetuated. We have done this to ourselves.
    Have some dignity guys. It is okay to let go of the ego and admit "your" style does not have everything. Grapplers admit it. Thai Boxers admit. Western Boxers admit it. Why can't the CMA community as a whole admit it?

    Cheers
    Jake
    "Gravity doesn't lie, and the ground never misses."
    Jake Burroughs
    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
    Seattle, WA.
    www.threeharmonies.com
    three_harmonies@hotmail.com
    www.threeharmonies.blogspot.com

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Three Harmonies View Post
    Have some dignity guys. It is okay to let go of the ego and admit "your" style does not have everything. Grapplers admit it. Thai Boxers admit. Western Boxers admit it. Why can't the CMA community as a whole admit it?

    Maybe because that might lead to admitting other unpleasant things?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Three Harmonies View Post
    Again, once more, their is a difference between having a few moves that you do when someone is STANDING ABOVE YOU, and their being a set curriculum for ground combat (TWO people are engaged on the GROUND!! NOT one standing above the other!).
    Robert has admitted that the majority of the ground stuff he does with TWO PEOPLE on the ground is drawn from BJJ, and Sambo. I assume he has trained some with guests and what not in his hometown.
    Neither of what you offer is viable. It is simply people stating an opinion, not fact. EVERYONE and their brother in the CMA community is talking about adaptation and how ground fighting has "ALWAYS" been in their curriculum. That is why it has been seen in demos, and videos, and tournaments all these years
    These are people simply trying to mask their fear of the unknown with a veil of a false reality.
    I have a foot in both worlds, but I tell you something... the grappling / BJJ / Sambo / Judo community thinks that CMArtists are a ****ing joke! And frankly it has all been self perpetuated. We have done this to ourselves.
    Have some dignity guys. It is okay to let go of the ego and admit "your" style does not have everything. Grapplers admit it. Thai Boxers admit. Western Boxers admit it. Why can't the CMA community as a whole admit it?

    Cheers
    Jake
    Very well said. Tim would be proud
    Fact is, no style is an island and that has always been the case as we can see historically with the "great ones" cross training in other MA systems.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #20
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    Thanks Ronin! I agree 100%!

    Jake
    "Gravity doesn't lie, and the ground never misses."
    Jake Burroughs
    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
    Seattle, WA.
    www.threeharmonies.com
    three_harmonies@hotmail.com
    www.threeharmonies.blogspot.com

  6. #21
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    ED: well, i have just never seen any style i've run across have more than some striking and joint locks that they maybe worked while prone. but, no CMA addresses the situation (with the possible exception of SC) like judo, jujitsu of any color, or the various shades of wrestling.
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  7. #22
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    and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll....
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  8. #23
    jake,
    great post and I see validity in it believe me. I just tried to let hardwork know kung fu is not a standup only art and it does address the fighting from a fallen position. I am in no way comparing it to the ground styles.. but we arnt helpless when we go to the ground.



    and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll....

    LOL but at least its something on the mantis board to discuss.been slow lately

    but, no CMA addresses the situation (with the possible exception of SC) like judo, jujitsu of any color, or the various shades of wrestling

    I agree and in no way am I saying the ground work I was taught is 8 step. I am just saying that is not accuarate to assume kung fu has never adressed the ground or how to fight from it or becuse your on it.
    even with the shuai chiao in our system its deals only with throwing...
    KUNG FU USA
    www.eightstepkungfu.com
    Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
    Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
    Wu style Taiji Chuan



    Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."

  9. #24
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    ok, but if the groundwork you learned isn't 8 Step then is it even kung fu?

    my first teacher was also a wrestler, my second teacher was also a judoka...they both added in elements of those things to round out our skills but never claimed they were cma.

    SC may or may not have ground grappling...I haven't seen any of it though...and I've not seen a whole lot of SC either so, i just don't know.


    it is safe to say that most kung fu IS basically a stand up art with a minimal percentage of it's attention (if any) paid to grappling on the ground...most kung fu doesn't even address a proper stand up clinch, mostly sticking to trapping and moving on.
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Three Harmonies View Post
    Jesus!!! Now the Wing Chunners are coming over to the Mantis group spreading their drama! Plenty of drama with the Mantis folks, leave us be please!!
    I am here to learn and as you see the crap is coming from Kansuke (a friend of Sanuro´s) who does not practice any kung fu. He is here to troll and disrupt threads with his slanderous remarks.

    So, it is best to ignore him and hopefully kansuke and Sanjuro ronin will quitely escort each other out of this thread to which they have not contributed as far as the thread subject matter is concerned.

  11. #26
    Oso,
    ok, but if the groundwork you learned isn't 8 Step then is it even kung fu?

    not quite sure I would have to ask my teacher... all he said was it was mantis ground fighting. But as we all know he has said a lot of things over the years that later found out to be embellished....
    KUNG FU USA
    www.eightstepkungfu.com
    Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
    Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
    Wu style Taiji Chuan



    Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll....
    Please show some respect. I started this topic to have a serious discussion about the ground fighting aspect of kung fu, specially Northern Mantis and to learn something from the people who actually practice/teach this potent style.

    If you have fallen for the false image of me projected by the MMA community of this forum and you wish to start silly arguments, then please make your way to the main forum and go crazy. Otherwise make your peace and be respectful.

    Thank you!

  13. #28
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    right.........
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    Oso,
    ok, but if the groundwork you learned isn't 8 Step then is it even kung fu?

    not quite sure I would have to ask my teacher... all he said was it was mantis ground fighting. But as we all know he has said a lot of things over the years that later found out to be embellished....
    fair enough and, imo, not a bad thing at all.


    Redfish said something on another thread about the nomenclature of the forms and how we are all doing the same kung fu irrelevent of the name...i thought that was good thinking and I think it can go another step further in that we are all after the same goal in martial arts...but the problem arises when pride and ego get in the way of simply saying "I don't know xxx".

    The simple fix is to find someone who can teach you xxx or yyy as the case may be.
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon View Post
    Jake,
    not to disagree as I said my teacher may have very well added ground work to 8 step to prepare us for the octogan, but I found this article on a webiste as I have found hundreds (too many to list here) but there are many about mantis ground fighting.
    Actually when I think about it I appreciate that the Chinese masters who created the animal styles took many of the fighting "essences" of these animals and adopted it to humans.

    When one thinks of an insect fighting then many times it is ground fighting.


    When a Seven Star Praying Mantis practitioner gains experience against other styles of fighting then he can apply the principles and concepts of his system to overcome each type of fighting approach. This includes, for example, grappling on the ground. Once the skills of a ground-grappling stylist are understood the principles and concepts of Seven Star Praying Mantis, such as redirection, joint manipulation, pressure point attacks, and trapping tactics can be employed to successfully neutralize and defend against this fighting range.

    This is my understanding of what happens in part in Siu Lam Wing Chun groundfighting. The groundfighting takes place "inside" the principles and concepts of WC, but using chi-na and striking techniques.


    Quote Originally Posted by EarthDragon
    so to say there is NO record of ANY CMA have a comprehensive curriculum for ground combat is false.....
    Agreed!

    How can people claim that when wrestling arts were around in China long before kung fu and still continue?

    Do the proponents of "no groundfighting" in kung fu believe that none of the masters who created the major kung fu styles foresaw a scenario where a fight would go to the ground?

    Do some people think that the old masters thought that they would create all these lethal striking and Chi-na techniques that take years to master but did not bother to address the odd wrestler who may attack kung fu practitioner?

    Yes you are right EarthDragon, many kung fu styles do address groundfighting. Wether these aspects are trained nowadays in the era of Mcdojos/kwoons, is another story.

    That is why in the past I have had differences with people who would make comments like "there is no groundfighting in kung fu"; "kung fu has no power" etc. while themselves having had nothing more than a passing "flirtation" with TCMA and probably in a McKwoon to start with on their way to Muay thai, bjj and so on.

    I believe that as your quote says a better understanding of the principles and concepts of an individual system will open many doors that will expose the richness of styles such as Praying Mantis.

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