Northern Mantis Groundfighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

jake,
great post and I see validity in it believe me. I just tried to let hardwork know kung fu is not a standup only art and it does address the fighting from a fallen position. I am in no way comparing it to the ground styles.. but we arnt helpless when we go to the ground.



and you know, the most ridiculous thing is that we are all responding to a troll....

LOL but at least its something on the mantis board to discuss.been slow lately

but, no CMA addresses the situation (with the possible exception of SC) like judo, jujitsu of any color, or the various shades of wrestling

I agree and in no way am I saying the ground work I was taught is 8 step. I am just saying that is not accuarate to assume kung fu has never adressed the ground or how to fight from it or becuse your on it.
even with the shuai chiao in our system its deals only with throwing...

Tim Cartmell did an excellent book ( did the translation) on CHin'Na that had quiet some ground work in it, including guard work, arm bars, leg locks and such.
Practicla Chin_na I think was the name.
I Highly recommend it.

[mantid1]

I have been training CMA for over 25 years now...have talked with alot of CMA instructors in that time period....I dont think that I have EVER heard anyone say that their particular style has ground fighting.

That is why we trained Judo (yes, we knew the difference between that and JJ) back in the 80's when I started. That is why I had to laugh when "MMA" became such a great idea..... my instructors had been doing that since the early 70's. Think about the money they could have made if they were good at marketing.

They never cared that CMA didnt have ground fighting or stand up grappling other than some joint locks....it is what it is. They just incorporated Judo/JJ and called it good if it worked.

They did spend time teaching the ground aspect with methods mentioned above...but their main concern was the stand up aspect....not going to the ground.

Face it....if you are law enforcent or even a bouncer in a bar the last place you want to be is on the ground with your arms and legs wrapped around the guy....even if he is controlled In the mma ring you dont have to worry about the judge and his friends putting a bullet in the back of your head or the judge and two of his friends kicking you in the teeth while you are controlling the other guy.

This must be an arguement for the new generation.

I think it also goes back to a point Three Harmonies made a while back. While I still hold my ground on the point the style does make a difference......it will boil down to the instructor like he said. If the style is great but the instructor lacks understanding...then it wont work. You need a great style or styles along with good instructor to make it happen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have been training CMA for over 25 years now...have talked with alot of CMA instructors in that time period....I dont think that I have EVER heard anyone say that their particular style has ground fighting.

That is why we trained Judo (yes, we knew the difference between that and JJ) back in the 80's when I started. That is why I had to laugh when "MMA" became such a great idea..... my instructors had been doing that since the early 70's. Think about the money they could have made if they were good at marketing.

They never cared that CMA didnt have ground fighting or stand up grappling other than some joint locks....it is what it is. They just incorporated Judo/JJ and called it good if it worked.

They did spend time teaching the ground aspect with methods mentioned above...but their main concern was the stand up aspect....not going to the ground.

Face it....if you are law enforcent or even a bouncer in a bar the last place you want to be is on the ground with your arms and legs wrapped around the guy....even if he is controlled In the mma ring you dont have to worry about the judge and his friends putting a bullet in the back of your head or the judge and two of his friends kicking you in the teeth while you are controlling the other guy.

This must be an arguement for the new generation.

I think it also goes back to a point Three Harmonies made a while back. While I still hold my ground on the point the style does make a difference......it will boil down to the instructor like he said. If the style is great but the instructor lacks understanding...then it wont work. You need a great style or styles along with good instructor to make it happen.

TO say that ALL CMA have ground fighting is wrong.
To say that NO CMA has ground fighting is also wrong.
Better to "debate" how effective the existing ground fighting is.

[mantid1]

Well, I never said that all CMA has ground fighting or no CMA has ground fighting. I said the people I have met never claimed to haver ground fighting....big difference.

Debating ground fighting is like debating the effectiveness of a hand grenade or getting a job will pay your bills. Some things are just to obvious to "debate"... even on a forum.

Who did you train kyokishin with in Canada? I once met a guy who trained it up there...gave hime some jow. He was big into breaking ice. He was a trapper....lived in the woods most of the year. Tough guy. I dont care if yor did mantis or bjj this dude would have given you a run for your money.

I have trained with some good kyokishin guys....great fighting style.

I think he would have laughed at internet forums and people "talking" about fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, I never said that all CMA has ground fighting or no CMA has ground fighting. I said the people I have met never claimed to haver ground fighting....big difference.

Debating ground fighting is like debating the effectiveness of a hand grenade or getting a job will pay your bills. Some things are just to obvious to "debate"... even on a forum.

Who did you train kyokishin with in Canada? I once met a guy who trained it up there...gave hime some jow. He was big into breaking ice. He was a trapper....lived in the woods most of the year. Tough guy. I dont care if yor did mantis or bjj this dude would have given you a run for your money.

I have trained with some good kyokishin guys....great fighting style.

I think he would have laughed at internet forums and people "talking" about fighting.

I was ranked Nidan under Shihan Roman in '93.
I've trained under a few different Sensei's in my time.

[EarthDragon]

shuai Chiao, (Chinese wrestling) although 8 step has adopted only 40 "throws" of this style where is the ground fighting in it? its called wrestling is must wrestle? can anyone elaborate?

[sanjuro_ronin]

shuai Chiao, (Chinese wrestling) although 8 step has adopted only 40 "throws" of this style where is the ground fighting in it? its called wrestling is must wrestle? can anyone elaborate?

There is some ground work in Shuai Chiao, part of the Chin-na curriculum I think.

[mantid1]

Sounds like you have had some great training. But, I bet if you go back to your instructors and ask their opinions of "debating" about ground fighting...or any fighting for that matter... they will have the same opinion that I have....even if they are peace loving canadians. They will probably to tell you to stay off of the internet...it wont help your fighting at all.

Have a good day!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sounds like you have had some great training. But, I bet if you go back to your instructors and ask their opinions of "debating" about ground fighting...or any fighting for that matter... they will have the same opinion that I have....even if they are peace loving canadians. They will probably to tell you to stay off of the internet...it wont help your fighting at all.

Have a good day!

LMAO !
Good point.

[EarthDragon]

LOL how true........ but one must realize that ON the kung fu forum is the most fighting these guys will ever do! only in this day and age is the keyboard a weapon...........In the old days you would use it only to smack someone across the face with it.....

I got into a fight at a college frat party long time ago and when I thinking that it wasnt go to go my way I picked up a rotary dial phone and hit one of the guys across the the face with it...... I never had that chance with a computer.... LOL

[BeiTangLang]

See Oso! Thats why I do not shut them down too quickly.

My take/opinion is this:
These fighting methods were designed with groups & battlefields in mind. Somebody tossed you to the ground & either your allies or theirs stuck a weapon in one of you, game over. The ground is a fickle place to be if you are not 1 on 1.

As far as mantis goes, I have seen ground technique. Not a lot of it though the the main goal of what I did see was to cya untill you were on your feet again. This makes sense to me when I take into consideration what the system was desinged for.

The fastest racecars in the world cant keep up with a jeep off-road. Everyhting is designed for something....not everything.

Best wishes to you all,
~BTL

[EarthDragon]

I think BTL does a wonderful job of monitorng this board. Even if a thread gets off track momentarily I think there are enough of us mature grownups to get it back on track. this board should never be cofused with the main board.. its just a playground over there

[Three Harmonies]

The only CMA that can be credited with battlefield arts is Xing Yi, and as I study and probe deeper I am finding little proof of that as well. None the less if you are thrown on the battlefield you are ****ed! Ground work was just not an intelligent option.

Shuai Chiao does not have any ground curriculum! Some SC teachers have even been quoted as saying ground fighting was akin to "Dogs rolling in the dirt!" Now how much has the art changed over the years....don't know. For instance their used to be many sacrifice throws in SC, but have been removed for modern competition. Some like the "Pillow Toss" were removed because you would land on your opponents ribs often causing injury.
So was there ground work in SC? Unlikely. To argue that it is a "wrestling / grappling" style as the foundation of your argument that ground work must have been included is not very solid.

Jake

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only CMA that can be credited with battlefield arts is Xing Yi, and as I study and probe deeper I am finding little proof of that as well. None the less if you are thrown on the battlefield you are ****ed! Ground work was just not an intelligent option.

Shuai Chiao does not have any ground curriculum! Some SC teachers have even been quoted as saying ground fighting was akin to "Dogs rolling in the dirt!" Now how much has the art changed over the years....don't know. For instance their used to be many sacrifice throws in SC, but have been removed for modern competition. Some like the "Pillow Toss" were removed because you would land on your opponents ribs often causing injury.
So was there ground work in SC? Unlikely. To argue that it is a "wrestling / grappling" style as the foundation of your argument that ground work must have been included is not very solid.

Jake

I thought Eagle Claw was created for the battlefield, whatever that means.

[Three Harmonies]

Nasty rumor. I have not seen any substantial proof of it. And think about it....

Correct me if I am wrong Sanjuro, but you are/were a bouncer no? In the short 6 years I bounced I can honestly say, chokes being the exception (and technically I was not allowed to choke anyone), Chin Na Fa (joint manipulation), is one of THE MOST difficult aspects of the Si Ji Fa (kick-punch-throw-lock) to pull off. Don't get me wrong I got my occasional wrist lock or shoulder lock, but overall very, very difficult to pull off even with years of training!
So the argument that soldiers were taught joint manipulation as there primary source of hand to hand combat quickly fades into the fantasy realm when looked at with a critical eye. You train soldiers as efficiently as possible. Joint manipulation would not be efficient. Nor as effective as say striking.

Just my two cents,
Jake