do you ever...

[Lucas]

This method is somewhat of a newer thing for me, in regards to my xiaohongquan. Been trying this for the past year. So not that long.

When I was being taught my taiji form. There were always two ways I was taught to do the form. One way is like the old man. Slow, soft, very relaxed, no tension. The other way is through mental visualization. fajing/power, resistance, and endurance emphasized in the later format.

For instance. The opening of the taiji form where you raise your arms.
When practicing with the visualization, you are to move and activate your muscle groups as though you are lifting a bucket of sand with each arm, or perhaps children. simply raising the arms is no good. Promoting the correct activation of the muscle groups, as well as muscular endurance. Doing movements slowly like this while all the while truly getting every muscle in the chain to work to the correct effect is a training procedure to help promote this as muscle memory, as well as promoting stronger muscular endurance, since each muscle group is being activated through motion for a longer period of time. every single movement is like this. often times you use a partner to apply resistance to find the muscles taht can be activated that you may have not been using. harder hits. more power, etc.

this is of course one small aspect of why this is done this way.

When i practice my xiaohongquan (i have not started to do my dahongquan slowly) i practice it this way. As seen in the first video that LFJ posted.

Of course I do this 2 times maybe 3 to warm up. not for cool down.

Xiaohongquan on average takes 30 seconds to perform. If i spend 1-2 hours working my form a couple days a week. what is 2-3 times performing in this manner going to do other than benefit me? More attention can be placed on presice movement structure, alignment...etc.

Im not telling anyone they should do this. this is just something that I do. Mainly I was curious to see if others do this. Apparently some of the monks do. I was unsure if anyone else did this.

I spend far less time doing this slowly than doing this fast. I spend far less time doing the form than working the techniques themselves, i spend even less time doing that then i do working against resistance and on my heavy bag.

I am in no way a form collector. I stopped doing all of my other many forms on a regular basis, and only perform them on scheduled review periods so that i can later offer these to others of they wish. IF i decide to ever teach anyone.

So as these 2 forms are the only ones I maintain and work to improve on a very regular basis. I strip them down and try to squeeze everything out of them taht i can. from every angle i can think of.

this of course, is just me with my personal martial art. and of course ive been practicing these sets for years, so it helps to 'spice it up' a bit. keeps it even more interesting.

[LFJ]

this isnt the same songshan shaolin xiaohongquan, and not the same idea, but kinda fits here...

zhou baofu explains in this video about the three steps learning forms; study, flow, and practice.

he says "flowing" the form 1,000 times and then only really practicing it once is better than just doing it hard and fast all the time.

from experience, i agree with what he says. i "flow" my forms quite often, sometimes only in my head, and later when i go to actually practice it, it comes out better.

[Lucas]

i like the analogy with the bow and the arrow.

Jesse Tsao Sifu shows this very well in this chen fajing video.

[DeHui702]

Ok, so there's a random VCD that explains thinking about a form before doing it. Obviously 1000 times isn't literal, just a seed to say think about the form a lot. Doesn't really seem to have anything to do with practicing a military form as though it were Taiji. I honestly thought you were going to discuss more about what your Shifu Dejian taught you.

Lucas, there is no reason on earth to visualize children hanging from your arms when you're doing Taiji. Although that is very funny. Even the simplest Taiji form like the Standardized 24 activates 95% of the body's muscle groups. If you feel the need for resistance you can do pushups, situps, pullups, etc. There is no resistance in Taiji.

Like I said, I don't know that practicing in these ways is harmful or beneficial and if some Sifu somewhere told you to practice like this, that's great. Always listen to your Sifu. Just make sure you are honest with yourself.

[Lucas]

This is the way I was taught by gregory fong sifu. though this is taiji i-chuan fusion. its like touching the hot stove.

i did not study under him for a very long time, but what i learned was quite valuable. He surely did improve my power.

[LFJ]

Ok, so there's a random VCD that explains thinking about a form before doing it. Obviously 1000 times isn't literal, just a seed to say think about the form a lot. Doesn't really seem to have anything to do with practicing a military form as though it were Taiji. I honestly thought you were going to discuss more about what your Shifu Dejian taught you.

it was posted as something to considered. another take on forms practice. but he was indeed suggesting that "flowing" the form (not just thinking about it) more often is the key to performing it well, rather than only practicing it full, as that would only exhaust you before long. in my experience, flowing the form is very important in being able to perform it well, by paying attention to detail. so i agree with him

as for master dejian, he is not my shifu and hasnt taught me anything personally. what i said about him was again to present another take on forms practice. in fact, its not really another take, its a whole different lineage that has been very well protected from dilution. the whole curriculum taught by him is very "internal". its never practiced fast. the movements are in coordination with the breath, and he says yelling during the form causes one to waste qi.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Doing a form slow is for the body mechanics training. In shaolin they go fast and hard at the beginning to build the body. Then as one advnaces the forms are slowed down and you really work every nuance of the body mechanics. It becomes very internal at that point.

In Taiji they go fast and hard later, preferring to get every nuance of the mechanics mastered first. It's probably the older way to do this stuff.

When you realize that the forms were taught last, and all the hard core conditioning was originally done through the drills and equipment training (IE Stone locks, bags, water buckets etc...) it make sense that going slow was the original way to do them. They were tools for the advanced students to master the refined details, not train them up from the beginning. Actually, if you go even further back, you find that they were taught only to the new masters as a *Diploma* of sorts and not used in training at all.

Today forms are often used as beginners training, so they are externalified for that purpose. That is why you see so much of the "Fast and Hard" ways of doing the forms, and so little of the more advanced Taiji like ways.

[Royal Dragon]

Doing a form slow is for the body mechanics training. In shaolin they go fast and hard at the beginning to build the body. Then as one advnaces the forms are slowed down and you really work every nuance of the body mechanics. It becomes very internal at that point.

In Taiji they go fast and hard later, preferring to get every nuance of the mechanics mastered first. It's probably the older way to do this stuff.

When you realize that the forms were taught last, and all the hard core conditioning was originally done through the drills and equipment training (IE Stone locks, bags, water buckets etc...) it make sense that going slow was the original way to do them. They were tools for the advanced students to master the refined details, not train them up from the beginning. Actually, if you go even further back, you find that they were taught only to the new masters as a *Diploma* of sorts and not used in training at all.

Today forms are often used as beginners training, so they are externalified for that purpose. That is why you see so much of the "Fast and Hard" ways of doing the forms, and so little of the more advanced Taiji like ways.

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Arghhh!! I forgot to log in as me!!

[DeHui702]

Shi DeJian would definitely be at a level of respectibility to make that determination for his students. I'm very curious to see more of him, because to my knowledge he is still at Shaolin Temple. The main curriculum there, particularly the secular disciples involves some of the hardest and most powerful applications, soft internalizations, and yelling galore. If what you are saying is true to what he teaches, Shi Dejian's curriculum is unique at Shaolin and in many ways opposite.

[DeHui702]

We start applying internal techniques in the second beginners form in Shaolin. By the time you're doing Lohan boxing the interaction between internal and external is clear.

I'm not sure where you're getting the externalized remark from. If Shifu shortens a long form like Xiaohongquan, then all of the elements of Xiaohongquan are still there. If he shortens Lohanquan then all of the elements are there, including the internal. I'm sure you're basing the theory of externalization on on something you've experienced, but as far as drastic alterations of forms to exclude any intended internal content..that's pretty bizarre and questionable stuff.

Lucas, definitely keep practicing if that's the way your Sifu taught you. Since you're enjoying internal and external methods, you should pick up a Damo Jian vcd and start doing that sword form. You'd pick it up pretty fast since your head seems to be in the right place.

[LFJ]

Shi DeJian would definitely be at a level of respectibility to make that determination for his students. I'm very curious to see more of him, because to my knowledge he is still at Shaolin Temple.

as far as i know he stays at another small temple in the mountains with his disciples and students. he's not actually living in shaolin temple, and hasnt been for a while.

The main curriculum there, particularly the secular disciples involves some of the hardest and most powerful applications, soft internalizations, and yelling galore. If what you are saying is true to what he teaches, Shi Dejian's curriculum is unique at Shaolin and in many ways opposite.

its unique because he is part of a lineage the others are not part of- from master wu gulun who was a former monk in shaolin in of the 1800's.

however, the hard, external, yelling stuff is mostly from kids who train at schools around shaolin.

most of the monks in shaolin temple under abbot yongxin have an internal basis and do more grunting that screaming, which is like master dejian. they have a different lineage, that moves faster. but the internal elements are still there.