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Thread: OT: does obama bring change?

  1. #1546
    Well, this is interesting:

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/22340.html

    In the rush to file their federal income tax forms for tax year 2006, Americans may not look closely enough at their W-2s and may not realize the true economic incidence of payroll taxes; they may not realize that they probably paid more in federal payroll taxes than in federal income taxes last year. Most economists agree that virtually all of the payroll tax burden is borne by workers, even that portion that is legally paid by the employer. And so when we count that as a tax on the worker, we begin to realize that this 15.3 percent tax rate can be higher than the income tax rate that these individuals are paying; most of them lie below the Social Security cap ($97,500) and fall in the 10 and 15 percent taxable income brackets (with possibly some income being taxed at the 25 percent rate). Only for high-income earners or those who earn most of their income in non-wage form will their income tax burden exceed their payroll tax burden.

    The Tax Foundation recently released a Fiscal Fact looking at how different types of taxes weigh differently on different income groups. Among the study's highlights (from 2004 data):

    For households in the bottom 20 percent of the income scale, the average payroll tax burden per household for tax year 2004 was $917, while the average federal income tax burden per household (excluding refundable portion of EITC) was $171.

    For the middle income group, the average payroll taxes paid per household was nearly double the average federal income tax.

    For the bottom 40 percent of households, property taxes, payroll taxes, and state/local general sales taxes was each a larger hit on households than the federal individual income tax.

    The federal individual income tax is much more progressive than state/local income taxes. As a quick illustration, for every dollar in federal individual income taxes paid by the middle income group, the top quintile paid $7.86 in federal individual income taxes. At the state/local individual income tax level, that number was $5.36.

    Individual income taxes at both the federal and state/local level drive the bulk of the progressivity in the entire tax system. As a quick illustration, for every dollar of total taxes paid by the middle income group in 2004 at all levels of government, the top quintile paid $3.87 in taxes. However, excluding all individual income taxes, that number drops to around $2.82.

    The bottom quintile pays more in taxes on tobacco and alcohol (at all levels) than in federal individual income taxes, even after excluding the refundable portion of EITC.

    For more on how different types of households are hit harder by different types of taxes, check out the full working paper on which these numbers are based.

    http://www.urban.org/publications/1001065.html

    Two-Thirds of Tax Units Pay More Payroll Tax Than Income Tax

    April 15 is synonymous with taxes in the United States, but most Americans actually pay more payroll taxes than federal income taxes. In 2006 workers and employers each paid 6.2 percent Social Security tax on the first $94,200 of earnings and 1.45 percent Medicare tax on all wages. While the statutory obligation to pay payroll taxes is split evenly between workers and employers, most economists believe that the employer tax usually translates into lower wages, so workers bear the full burden of the tax. Thus, the total payroll tax rate equals 15.3 percent of earnings for most workers.

    About two-thirds of taxpayers owed more payroll taxes (including the employer portion) than individual income taxes in 2006. Many households (including most retirees) do not have any wage income and thus pay no payroll tax. Among households with wage earners, 86 percent have higher payroll taxes than income taxes, including almost all of those with incomes less than $40,000 and 94 percent of those with incomes less than $100,000. If only the employee portion of payroll taxes is considered, 44 percent of taxpayers and 56 percent of wage earners pay more payroll tax than income tax, including nearly 80 percent of earners with incomes less than $50,000.

  2. #1547
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    Which is it? Did they go down or did they "Go through the roof"?......can't be both.

    I think you have this lying thing down to an art......much better than Obama.
    I just posted that I mistyped. And I manned up to it.

    Sorry about the confusion.
    When given the choice between big business and big government, choose big business. Big business never threw millions of people into gas chambers, but big government did.

    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men" -Samuel Adams

  3. #1548
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    Why would you give money to charity you don't believe in?
    Where did I say that?

    I believe in choosing to donate to charities, I am against it being forced.
    When given the choice between big business and big government, choose big business. Big business never threw millions of people into gas chambers, but big government did.

    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men" -Samuel Adams

  4. #1549
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    RC,

    Why are you hammering me on payroll taxes?

    I'm on record saying they should be abolished.
    When given the choice between big business and big government, choose big business. Big business never threw millions of people into gas chambers, but big government did.

    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men" -Samuel Adams

  5. #1550
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Birth rates and illegitamacy rates are two different things.
    And you made no previous reference to illegitimacy rates.

    Futhermore the question of birth out of wedlock is irrelevant to the discussion at hand except insofar as single parents are likely to have lower incomes.

    Furthermore you have presented no information to suggest any net change in illegitimacy rates.

    If the solution to education is more money, every child in the US should be a genius.
    I would suggest that there are 3 fundamental flaws in the USA education system:

    1) Under-funding.
    2) Misapplication of funds.
    3) Setting funding levels on student performance - with schools that have poor performance thus getting less funding (which further worsens the situation). The tendency of the third problem to ghettoize schooling has been widely commented on both within academic circles and by the media.

    Well it won't. The teacher's union is determined to stamp out as much potential competition as possible. I wonder why?
    And you can thank your lucky stars for that. Total privatization of education would be the worst possible disaster that could befall the USA - short of a nuclear exchange or a disease pandemic.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    One thing I need confirmation on: There are different types of socialism/socialists, right?
    There most certainly are different types of socialism.

    No type of socialism is a match for Obama, for his policies or for his outlook.

    I mean, good grief, the man has put pro-scab regulations in presidential memoranda.

    I can't think of any socialist or even NEAR socialist who would countenance such a blantantly anti-worker action.
    Last edited by SimonM; 03-20-2009 at 12:23 PM.
    Simon McNeil
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  6. #1551
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    I just posted that I mistyped. And I manned up to it.

    Sorry about the confusion.

    As was pointed out "illegitimacy rates" were not even being discussed. Also you continued on with the illiteracy argument:

    Looks like the total literacy went down:

    2000: 6.9%
    2005: 6.0%

    http://www.uis.unesco.org/en/stats/s...gional2002.xls
    Today 12:50 PM
    Now you're saying you didn't even mean lliteracy even though you responded when questioned about it without saying "Wait a minute.....".

    Another lie to cover up a lie?

  7. #1552
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Gee, another one plays the race card.

    Look I've jumped all over individuals like Castro, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, and Marx to name a few.

    Are they all black guys too?

    I have a problem with socialists, and those advocating big government. Obama is both. Keyes is the direct opposite of that.
    Oh yeah, Obama is a socialist
    The biggest socialist program is progressive taxation brought to us by the repub Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt ( McCain's idol) is a socialist in today's standards. I am tired of the average labeller of Obama being a socialist... are ****tard who sounding like Joe the Plumber or brothers Larry, Darryl and Darryl, making under 50,000. If you make in 33% and up .. tax bracket incomes...then complain...about Obama " spread your wealth" , otherwise be thankful and stfu( in a polite sense
    Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.
    John Stuart Mill
    English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

    A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward.
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    Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882 - 1945)

  8. #1553
    Quote Originally Posted by SharkyT View Post
    Cmon , Dude. Bush ****ed us over, lied about WMDS, which led to more than 4000 americans being killed. While his cronies got rich ( Blackwater, Haliburton). That is not disgrace?.Yet joke about Special olympics is national disgrace. Either you got a ****up gauge of morality or there is something about Obama that effects you personally. I read alot of your posts. Something about Obama really **** you off? I am sure it is color of his skin. Just say it, the guy is black and you know? Stop hiding it, saying " I voted for Alan Keyes" . That is like saying I am not racist, because I got a black friend.
    You need a stuart smalley moment ...to let your inner klansman out.Where were you the last eight years? I made some good money, did you

    Good point. Conservatives learned a lot from David Duke. They learned to dress nicely, speak softly and intelligently and promote family and religious values.

    However they've evolved since the Duke days. Today they not only to they put forward a professional image but they've learned to keep their racist philosophy to themselves. Now a days they know the way to go it to promote a racist agenda while at the same time condeming racist groups.

  9. #1554
    1bad
    here is the typical guy who are complaining about Obama being a socialist , wanting to "spread the wealth".

    sorry about the small size of the downloads
    Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.
    John Stuart Mill
    English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

    A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward.
    [info][add][mail]
    Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882 - 1945)

  10. #1555
    Quote Originally Posted by SharkyT View Post
    1bad
    here is the typical guy who are complaining about Obama being a socialist , wanting to "spread the wealth".

    sorry about the small size of the downloads

    I disagree with that. I feel those pictures show the average working man. In my opinion the vast vast majority of your average middle class consumer believes that Obama is not socialist and is doing his best to correct the horror from the last eight years.

    The people who are yelling "socialists":

    These are the people who listen to Limby hours a day then Hannity and O'Reilly for two hours that night. They just parrot what these people say. Most of them could not give you a true definition of a socialist if their life depended on it.

  11. #1556
    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    Good point. Conservatives learned a lot from David Duke. They learned to dress nicely, speak softly and intelligently and promote family and religious values.

    However they've evolved since the Duke days. Today they not only to they put forward a professional image but they've learned to keep their racist philosophy to themselves. Now a days they know the way to go it to promote a racist agenda while at the same time condeming racist groups.
    Definitely. It is new way to play the same old game.
    Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.
    John Stuart Mill
    English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

    A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward.
    [info][add][mail]
    Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882 - 1945)

  12. #1557
    Quote Originally Posted by SharkyT View Post
    Definitely. It is new way to play the same old game.
    Oh yeah.....and they just love it if they can get a Clarence Thomas or Alan Keyes to stand beside them.

    Ha! I've heard stories (nothing that no one would own up to, of course) where JC Watts would go to big Washington fundraisers and him and his wife would be the only black faces there. People were standing in line to get their picture taken with Watts so they could share it with the folks back home....

    This is the main reason Watts is no longer in politics.

  13. #1558
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonM View Post
    Futhermore the question of birth out of wedlock is irrelevant to the discussion at hand except insofar as single parents are likely to have lower incomes.
    True. But growing up in two-parent homes is almost always better than in one-parent homes. Can we agree on that?

    It's also true that those raised in two-parent homes are less likely to have illegitimate children than those raised in one-parent homes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonM View Post
    Furthermore you have presented no information to suggest any net change in illegitimacy rates.
    http://aspe.hhs.gov/2000gb/appenm.txt


    Quote Originally Posted by SimonM View Post
    I would suggest that there are 3 fundamental flaws in the USA education system:

    1) Under-funding.
    2) Misapplication of funds.
    3) Setting funding levels on student performance - with schools that have poor performance thus getting less funding (which further worsens the situation). The tendency of the third problem to ghettoize schooling has been widely commented on both within academic circles and by the media.

    And you can thank your lucky stars for that. Total privatization of education would be the worst possible disaster that could befall the USA - short of a nuclear exchange or a disease pandemic.
    I'll answer those points in order.
    1) I think they are over-funded now. But only because they are so grossly inneficient and ran 'top-heavy'.
    2) Again, government is never as efficient as private business. It's a fact. For exmple, alot of states are now using private jails, as it often cheaper to pay a private company to run a jail than fund your own. And again, I bring up that the education system is 'top-heavy'.
    3) True. I agree it's flawed cycle now. My solution is that competition with private schools combined with the voucher system being implemented will ensure that only the best schools (and teachers, principles, admins, etc) will survive. The sub-par schools, etc will cease to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by SimonM View Post
    There most certainly are different types of socialism.

    No type of socialism is a match for Obama, for his policies or for his outlook.

    I mean, good grief, the man has put pro-scab regulations in presidential memoranda.

    I can't think of any socialist or even NEAR socialist who would countenance such a blantantly anti-worker action.
    Well I feel he does fit a type of socialism. He may not agree with every plank on a certain type, but that semantics. Like me, I don't agree with every plank on the Republican Party, or the Libertarian Party, etc. I'm a mix. But you can safely say I'm a small-to-no government guy. It's a general term.

    Hell, I'm anti-death penalty. And I can't name any Republicans off the top of my head who are like that. But I generally vote for them because in so many other ways I do agree with their stances on issues.

    'Card Check' will be what he does to prove how pro-union he is. Those guys are licking their chops at getting that passed. And Obama will do it. Gee, who here thinks getting away from the right to cast a secret ballot is a bad thing we need to 'change'?
    When given the choice between big business and big government, choose big business. Big business never threw millions of people into gas chambers, but big government did.

    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men" -Samuel Adams

  14. #1559
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    People were standing in line to get their picture taken with Watts so they could share it with the folks back home....
    Gee, did it ever cross your mind it was because the man was in the Republican Congressional leadership?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    This is the main reason Watts is no longer in politics.
    You've asked him?

    Provide a link to that please.
    When given the choice between big business and big government, choose big business. Big business never threw millions of people into gas chambers, but big government did.

    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men" -Samuel Adams

  15. #1560
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    RC,

    Why are you hammering me on payroll taxes?

    I'm on record saying they should be abolished.
    Just trying to put the stake into the heart of the "people who don't pay income taxes don't contribute" canard that you have been pushing.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Well Obama is for 'The People'. He is just for the people who don't pay income taxes and who got themselves into financial messes by signing ARMs on houses they couldn't afford.
    http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...613#post882613

    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65
    I'm referring to income taxes. They are BY FAR the largest percentage of taxes the middle class pays.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Speaking of taxes, how do you feel about everyone paying income taxes?

    I'm all for it. As it is now, we have millions of people who do not have to pay any income taxes, yet getting to vote for representatives who set tax policy that will not affect them, but will affect millions of others who are actually contributing.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    I looked it up for you. And it looks like you don't even have to pick the check up, they are gonna send it to you.

    "Barack Obama says he will give 95 percent of all American workers a tax cut but does not mention that his plan would send checks to tens of millions of tax filers who pay no personal income taxes - payments that critics say look "suspiciously like welfare."

    Mr. Obama's campaign promise, which he has repeated in his speeches and in the presidential debates, stems from his "Making Work Pay" tax cut that will give a $500 refundable tax credit to every worker or $1,000 to each working couple. But because this provision in his economic-recovery plan is "refundable," a large number of middle- to lower-income workers who have no income-tax liability after taking tax credits and deductions the that Internal Revenue Service allows, will be given the equivalent of the tax cut in the form of direct payments from the U.S. Treasury - funded by higher-income taxpayers."

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-who-dont-pay/
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Well keep in mind 40% don't pay any income taxes. So I don't consider that fair either.

    The problem I have with certain people not having to pay taxes others do, is that they can vote to raise other people's taxes, while they don't even have to pay any themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    That's true. But if everyone had to pay SOMETHING, it would be more fair than the system we have now where ~40% pay NOTHING.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    I think it shows the tax inequities.

    While some pay NOTHING, many others pay over 35%. That's not fair.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    "During 2006, Tax Foundation economists estimate that roughly 43.4 million tax returns, representing 91 million individuals, will face a zero or negative tax liability. That's out of a total of 136 million federal tax returns that will be filed. Adding to this figure the 15 million households and individuals who file no tax return at all, roughly 121 million Americans—or 41 percent of the U.S. population—will be completely outside the federal income tax system in 2006.1 This total includes those who pay no tax, and those who pay some tax upfront and are later refunded the full amount of the tax paid or more."

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/1410.html

    People who don't pay income taxes do pay payroll taxes. Hence, they contribute. As such they should certainly have a voice in tax policy, no?

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