OT: does obama bring change?

[BoulderDawg]

To imply that a soldier was killed intentionally due to his political affiliation is ignorant and indicative of a complete failure to understand military culture.

I don't know anything about that. I leave that out of my argument.

Here's an article from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/04/...ing/index.html

Notice the section:

"The Army later acknowledged not only that Tillman was killed by his fellow soldiers, but that officers in Tillman's chain of command knew the counterattack story was bogus.

Still, Senior Chief Petty Officer Stephen White told the official heroism-under-fire story at a May 3, 2004, memorial service for Tillman."

So that kinda shows that your agrument "It took time to get to the truth" was a big pile of S. They knew what happened when it happened.

Notice in this article the army also lied about Jessica Lynch and her ordeal.

So don't give me anymore BS about the honor of the military.

[Drake]

Ignore is a beautiful thing

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Drake
That's the most ignorant thing ever posted on this forum. Period.

We have anti-war folks, liberals, conservatives, and NOBODY would ever shoot another over political ideology. We have liberals commanding units out there. We have libertarians, we have green party, we even have the die-hard Rush fans. We all know not to ever corss the line when it comes to someone else's political or religious beliefs, because that's their own. We're just glad they chose to serve. You wouldn't know this, of course, because you only know what the papers tell you.

You and BD have effectively summed up your complete lack of credibility when it comes to military affairs. Your opinions in this matter are not valid, and quoting a liberal newspaper's speculation on a matter they did not understand means nothing.

And actually, BD, yes, I can make you shut up. It's called putting you back on ignore. No point in making silly physical threats here anyway, which some don't seem to get.

WOW! There must be some super ignorant stuff in this thread then
Quoting an article from the SF Chronicle is the most ignorant thing someone could do on this forum, period??

The LA Times reported in 2005:

The soldier next to him testified: “I could hear the pain in his voice as he called out, ‘Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat f—ing Tillman, ******.' He said this over and over until he stopped,” having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him.

Ya, ignorance is bliss isn't it Drake? Soldiers fragging and killing men in their own units is nothing new. Men were fragged in 'Nam all the time for less. Yet, I'm ignorant for believing the obvious truth that has been determined after what has been a VERY comprehensive investigation. Tillman hated Bush and, after serving in Afghanistan, thought the war was bullsh!t. It's so obvious one of the men in his squad killed him with an M-16 at close range. Three bullets went into his forehead within a close proximity. The current M-16 model fires 3 bullet bursts!! Just because you were in the military doesn't mean you can lord that over people and say, "you don't know jack because you were never in the military." Both of my grandfathers were in the Navy. One of my great grandfathers was in WWI. I've had all sorts of relatives who've fought in almost every war this century. My great uncle was a distinguished Air Force fighter pilot who flew with Chuck Yeager back in WWII! You could almost consider me a WWII historian even though I don't have a degree! And I'm completely ignorant about all things military!?

[1bad65]

You two are space cadets.

[1bad65]

Men were fragged in 'Nam all the time for less.

Do you have even ONE example?

[Drake]

WOW! There must be some super ignorant stuff in this thread then
Quoting an article from the SF Chronicle is the most ignorant thing someone could do on this forum, period??

The LA Times reported in 2005:

The soldier next to him testified: “I could hear the pain in his voice as he called out, ‘Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat f—ing Tillman, ******.' He said this over and over until he stopped,” having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him.

Ya, ignorance is bliss isn't it Drake? Soldiers fragging and killing men in their own units is nothing new. Men were fragged in 'Nam all the time for less. Yet, I'm ignorant for believing the obvious truth that has been determined after what has been a VERY comprehensive investigation. Tillman hated Bush and, after serving in Afghanistan, thought the war was bullsh!t. It's so obvious one of the men in his squad killed him with an M-16 at close range. Three bullets went into his forhead within a close proximity. The current M-16 model fires 3 bullet bursts!! Just because you were in the military doesn't mean you can ward that over people and say, "you don't know jack because you were never in the military." Both of my grandfathers were in the Navy. One of my great grandfathers was in WWI. I've had all sorts of relatives who've fought in almost every war this century. My great uncle was a distinguished Air Force fighter pilot who flew with Chuck Yeager back in WWII! You could almost consider me a WWII historian even though I don't have a degree! And I'm completely ignorant about all things military!?

Actually, he was killed by a crew served, idiot. And you wouldn't know this, but for one, we never use three round burst because a - it's not even remotely accurate and b - it wastes ammo. Secondly, they had M-4s. Third, and this is a bonus, since you couldn't possibly know this... when a few M4s and a crew served are going off, you can scream at the top of your lungs and nobody will hear you. I experienced this myself.

And NO, having family who served in WWII does not make you knowledgeable. ESPECIALLY if the guy was Air Force, and ESPECIALLY if your knowledge stops at Vietnam. You are NOT knowledgeable AT ALL, as evidenced in the way you explained the function of an M-16, and not even knowing what we are using now. FAIL.

[1bad65]

Ignore is a beautiful thing

Like I've said before. I know you can't convince people like them. I just want people who read this this and are undecided to see who makes a better case, has facts on their side, has reputable sources, etc.

I just think it's beyond disgusting how they can say those vile and untrue things about decorated veterans who served our country as Bush and McCain did.

[Drake]

It's wrong to go after ANY veteran's military record, especially combat. This goes for dems AND republicans. Going after Kerry's record was wrong on multiple levels. And don't even get me started on McCain. The man was a POW, FFS...

[Drake]

You two are space cadets.

Can't blame them, I guess, if they only have the internet to guide them. I even found allegations that **** Cheney ORDERED a hit on Pat Tillman. Some sick people out there...

[1bad65]

Can't blame them, I guess, if they only have the internet to guide them. I even found allegations that **** Cheney ORDERED a hit on Pat Tillman. Some sick people out there...

There are people who say certain world leaders are space aliens.

You just have to use common sense and write them for the nutbars they are. Sadly, some people use nutbars like that to back up their arguments.

[BoulderDawg]

"During the first six months of 1967, while McCain was part of an attack squadron of A-4 Skyhawks on the carrier Oriskany in the South China Sea, North Vietnamese officials said some 167 schools were bombed, along with 230 churches, three seminaries, and 23 pagodas. In late September—just a month before McCain's crash on his 23rd bombing run—U.S. planes managed to drop four massive container bombs (2,400 pellet bombs apiece) on a grade school in Thanh Hoa province, south of Hanoi. The school had just reopened after the summer recess and, according to Vietnamese reports, the attack killed 33 pupils, ages 8 to 12. Thirty more were wounded, including two teachers. That was a single incident. The American estimate is that the 1965-68 bombing campaign killed between 52,000 and 182,000 civilians; the Vietnamese claim the figure was several times higher."

http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-07-...rved-his-time/

Sounds to me like the terrorist John McCain was being sent out to bomb children and schools.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Good post Dawg,

The thing a lot of right wing, pseudo-fascists have trouble with is that there was a reason for the anti-war movement in the sixties. Vietnam was a dishonorable and disgraceful war. They don't even know how many Vietnamese we killed. We bombed villages, we napalmed the countryside where innocent people were going about their business. Nixon told everyone he was going to scale back the carnage, but instead he stepped it up behind everyone's back. Our B-52's carpet bombed the north killing countless thousands of innocent people. He sent troops into Cambodia and Laos. It's been estimated that up to 3 million people were killed throughout the whole war!!

[BoulderDawg]

Disgraceful...both Nixon and Johnson.

The Iraqi war is the same. Bush is this eras Nixon and so far Obama hasn't shown me he's going to do anything either.

I still say the best thing we as Americans can do is just refuse to fight. If every soldier in Iraq just dropped his gun and said "F it. I'm not killing anymore" then what would the politicians do?

I say for those fools that want to fight to knock yourself out. However don't do it on the US dime. Join some private special forces or something. However it you get in trouble don't come crying to the US embassy for help.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Drake
Actually, he was killed by a crew served, idiot. And you wouldn't know this, but for one, we never use three round burst because a - it's not even remotely accurate and b - it wastes ammo. Secondly, they had M-4s. Third, and this is a bonus, since you couldn't possibly know this... when a few M4s and a crew served are going off, you can scream at the top of your lungs and nobody will hear you. I experienced this myself.

And NO, having family who served in WWII does not make you knowledgeable. ESPECIALLY if the guy was Air Force, and ESPECIALLY if your knowledge stops at Vietnam. You are NOT knowledgeable AT ALL, as evidenced in the way you explained the function of an M-16, and not even knowing what we are using now. FAIL.

When the Afghan war started both M-16A2's and M-4's were issued out in the field and both had 3-round burst fire modes. And what, you're gonna tell me that 3-round bursts waste more ammo than switching to full auto? I thought that was the whole reason the Army was encouraging these variations.

For what it's worth, I had another uncle who saw fierce fighting in France along with his son who was in the same division after D-Day. As far as my great uncle is concerned, I'm sure you think, "oh, those guys in the Air Force are a bunch of pu$$ies. But actually, I think my great uncle fought in Korea too. How wussy can those guys be when their getting shot at just like any infantryman on the ground?

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Drake
It's wrong to go after ANY veteran's military record, especially combat. This goes for dems AND republicans. Going after Kerry's record was wrong on multiple levels. And don't even get me started on McCain. The man was a POW, FFS...

You know...I actually somewhat agree with that. One of the main reasons I've found myself doing it is because the Republicans have been so shameless about it. And you know, actually, throughout this countries history, there have been more Democrats who have served in our armed forces than Republicans. That makes it seem even more disgraceful for me that, whenever the Republicans get in office, they're the first ones to start clambering for war. It's usually for some sort of economic reason too. Bush and Cheney were willing to throw away thousands of American lives so Halliburton, Chevron, Unocal, and Shell could make hundreds of billions. That's the real sad part about all of this. It's an outrage!