Official Shaolin Temple Cultural Centers

[Sal Canzonieri]

I really think this should be in the "discrepancy in Bei Shaolin history" thread but I have to address these supposed discrepancies somewhere so here we go. First of all, the names of the sets don't even seem close to me. Perhaps you could translate some of the names (San Jian Zhu Ge?) Here are some translations of the Bei Shaolin sets:
Shaolin #1 Open The Door (entering the gate)
Shaolin #2 Lead the Way (following step)
Shaolin #3 Riding the Horse (sit on the horse)
Shaolin #4 Chest Attacks (penetrating the heart)
Shaolin #5 Military Moves (martial practice)
Shaolin #6 Short Strikes (close fighting)
Shaolin #7 Plum Blossom (plum flower)
Shaolin #8 Three Palms within Eight Steps (uprooting step)
Shaolin #9 Continuous Links (connecting circles)
Shaolin #10 Standard Moves (the method)
So where are the similarities? The only English words I can see in common are with both of the 4th forms, but "crossing heart hammer form" still seems dissimilar from "penetrating the heart". I don't own the book, but the pictures and descriptions I've seen in the wushu manual "Shaolin Kan Jia Quan" don't seem similar enough to be directly related to Bei Shaolin either.

I can understand that there will always be an effort to find "missing links" between styles. Especially when there are so few historical documents to go on. But pure speculation is no substitute for the actual history. Based upon the evidence presented, I can still only conclude for myself that the Bei Shaolin sets were kept totally secret and they're not really related in structure to the Kan Jia Quan sets. During the time of the Qing Dynasty they were kept secret out of necessity since openly practicing or teaching martial arts was punishable by death for a time. Then we jump to the 20th century and the disastrous Cultural Revolution when all of the Bei Shaolin, Shaolin Longfist, and Shaolin Lohan masters had to either flee the country or completely hide the fact that they knew martial arts. How did Kan Jia Quan survive in Shandong completely unscathed while other masters were being imprisoned and shot on sight even? Even the Buddhist monks were humiliated, persecuted, and denounced. Many of them had to flee or hide. You're gonna tell me Shaolin kung fu survived completely intact after all of this?

Sorry, I used a crappy automated translation for the names of the moves (I had scanned the page).

Look again I have revised the names for the sets correctly, you will see that a lot more match. If you had the chinese names and characters for the 10 Bei Shaolin sets, I bet there will be more matches.

I looked over all the 13 Kanjia Quan sets, they are short sets, all about 20-35 postures each . And, they are not actual sets, but all one set, separated into 13 sections, just like the 10 Bei Shaolin sets are one set, not really 10 separate sets.
Obviously the 13 Kania sets have been condensed into 10 easier to remember units.
And, this was done before they reached Shandong, because the one place left in Henan that still practices these sets says that they were condensed into 10 sets before they left Henan!

So, when I looked at the Shaolin Kanjia sets and compared to the 10 Bei Shaolin sets, it looks like all the constant repetition of postures was kept to a minimum, which shorten the sets already there.

The Shaolin Encyclopedia documents the old long versions of the sets.
Not the condensation that happened after it left the temple and went into the Henan countryside that practices these sets today, which is near Shandong border.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 1 (Kai Shan Quan - Open Mountain Fist form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 2 (Ying Zhang - Greeting Palm form) (means same as Lead the Way)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 3 (San Jian Zhu Ge - Three Recommendations for Zhu Ge )
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 4 (Chuan Xin Chui - Penetrate Heart Strikes or hammers form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 5 (Wu Fu - Five Husbands fist form) Wu Fu is pronounced the same as Military Moves, different characters.
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 6 (Di Pan Tui = Ground Level kicks form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 7 (Mei Hua Chui - Plum Flower Strikes or Hammers form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 8 (Lian Huan - Continuous Links Strikes or Hammers form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 9 (Lian Huan - Continuous Links kicks form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 10 (Mei Fu Zhang - Ambush Palm form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 11 (Pu Di Sha - Strike Ground Sand Form) Same idea as Uprooting Step, Pu Di means to uproot, or 'scoop sand'.
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 12 (Qin Di Gui Shan Men - Capture Enemy Return Mountain Gate form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 13 (has no name) ending movements.

By the way, Zhu Ge was a member of the Ming royal family that was hiding out there in Shaolin areas where the Kanjia was practiced. I think he was a little kid then.

SO you see? Just about all of them are there! And they show a condensation from 13 to 10.

[Firehawk4]

This Kan Jia Style has a form called Kai San (opening the Mountain) so does a Southern Style called Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist . Do you see any more forms from this list that might be the same as the Kan Jia Forms ? Chuka Shaolin Forms List
CHUKA SHAOLIN PHOENIX EYE FIST HAND FORMS
KAI SAN CHIEN (OPENING THE MOUNTAIN)
ER SHIH SZE TIEN (TWENTY FOUR POINTS,NUMBER ONE)
ER SHIH SZE TIEN (TWENTY FOUR POINTS,NUMBER TWO)
HU CHAO CHIEN (TIGER CLAW,ASCENDING TIGER)
HU CHAO CHIEN (TIGER CLAW,DESCENDING TIGER)
LOONG HU CHIEN (DRAGON AND TIGER)
TA CHOONG KOONG (STAMPING INSIDE,THE PALACE BEING SURROUNDED)
MEI HUA CHIEN (PLUM BLOSSOM)
LIEN HUANG TUEI(CONTINUOUS KICKS)
TONG TZE PAI KWAN YIN(BOY PAYING RESPECTS TO THE GODDESS OF MERCY)
YIN YAN ER SIEN KU (TWO POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE HEAVENLY LADIES)
TA OOH LI (STRENGTH PERFORMANCE)
SHIH PA LOHAN CHIEN (EIGHTEEN HANDS OF THE LOHAN)
FOONG YEN TIN SUN CHIEN (PHOENIX EYE FIST GUARDING THE MOUNTAIN)
SHIH TA HSING HSIAN(TEN ANIMALS FIGHTING MOVEMENTS)
KUNG SOW TWEE CHAI (PREARRANGED SPARRING,SET ONE)
KUNG SOW TWEE CHAI (PREARRANGED SPARRING ,SET TWO)

[Sal Canzonieri]

This Kan Jia Style has a form called Kai San (opening the Mountain) so does a Southern Style called Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist . Do you see any more forms from this list that might be the same as the Kan Jia Forms ? Chuka Shaolin Forms List
CHUKA SHAOLIN PHOENIX EYE FIST HAND FORMS
KAI SAN CHIEN (OPENING THE MOUNTAIN)
ER SHIH SZE TIEN (TWENTY FOUR POINTS,NUMBER ONE)
ER SHIH SZE TIEN (TWENTY FOUR POINTS,NUMBER TWO)
HU CHAO CHIEN (TIGER CLAW,ASCENDING TIGER)
HU CHAO CHIEN (TIGER CLAW,DESCENDING TIGER)
LOONG HU CHIEN (DRAGON AND TIGER)
TA CHOONG KOONG (STAMPING INSIDE,THE PALACE BEING SURROUNDED)
MEI HUA CHIEN (PLUM BLOSSOM)
LIEN HUANG TUEI(CONTINUOUS KICKS)
TONG TZE PAI KWAN YIN(BOY PAYING RESPECTS TO THE GODDESS OF MERCY)
YIN YAN ER SIEN KU (TWO POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE HEAVENLY LADIES)
TA OOH LI (STRENGTH PERFORMANCE)
SHIH PA LOHAN CHIEN (EIGHTEEN HANDS OF THE LOHAN)
FOONG YEN TIN SUN CHIEN (PHOENIX EYE FIST GUARDING THE MOUNTAIN)
SHIH TA HSING HSIAN(TEN ANIMALS FIGHTING MOVEMENTS)
KUNG SOW TWEE CHAI (PREARRANGED SPARRING,SET ONE)
KUNG SOW TWEE CHAI (PREARRANGED SPARRING ,SET TWO)

Hi;

This southern style comes from the Chu family (written with many variations, all are some way of saying "Zhu" in mandarin or Chu in southern dialects.
As such, this is from a different time period from Kanjia, which left Shaolin in the 1730s to 1780s.

The Chu family were of the Ming Royal family, Zhu (Chu) Yuanzhang was the first Ming emperor. This family left the Shaolin area, after hiding there in the 1640s-50s.
They split up for different areas.
Some went to Emei Shaolin affiliate temple and from there went to Fujian temple.

While in Northern Shaolin area they learned from Yi Guan the "Advancing and Retreating Attack" Wu Quan (Five Fists) style, created by Bai Yufeng and Zhue (Jue) Yuan around 1425, which is now called Wu Xing Quan in the south (Five Animals) and Luohan Quan in the north.

Most of those forms you listed in the Phoenix eye style are the same forms as those practiced by the Northern Wu Quan style and also by other styles that were later influenced by Wu Quan, such as Taizhu Men, which was practiced in Shandong. The list of the various Shandong Taizhu Men sets is very similar to both the Wu Quan sets and to your Phoenix Eye style shown here. Just about all your sets I have seen listed in Taizhu Men sub-styles.

I am finishing up writing a book about this whole thing very soon.

[Firehawk4]

I will look into these other styles you listed .

[Firehawk4]

I cant seem to find a list of forms for the Northern Wu Quan style or Taizhu Men style , Do you know where on the internet there might be a list of them ? The Chuka Shaolin forms are very different from the other Chu Gar and Southern Mantis styles they have Som Bo Gin and so forth .

[Sal Canzonieri]

I cant seem to find a list of forms for the Northern Wu Quan style or Taizhu Men style , Do you know where on the internet there might be a list of them ? The Chuka Shaolin forms are very different from the other Chu Gar and Southern Mantis styles they have Som Bo Gin and so forth .

I have them all in Chinese characters, they are going to be in my book.

[Firehawk4]

When is your book coming out ?

[Sal Canzonieri]

When is your book coming out ?

Not done yet, cleaning up the second draft.

[Firehawk4]

I cant wait to read your book .

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri
Obviously the 13 Kania sets have been condensed into 10 easier to remember units.
And, this was done before they reached Shandong, because the one place left in Henan that still practices these sets says that they were condensed into 10 sets before they left Henan!

Who says this? Are they credible? Is what these folks, who practice Kan Jia Chuan say, the truth and nothing but the truth? Is their testimony sufficient evidence to suggest that the sets were condensed later and not the other way around?

A school or a person clambering for the prestige of having the earliest version of Shaolin Chuan that came out of the temple back in the 1700's might falsely claim that their's was the original pre-condensed material. Or maybe there's the possibility that they didn't even really know. I'm not making any accusations here. I'm just asking: is this really sufficient evidence to close the debate on this issue?

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Oh, and let me further say, anyone might want to say that if they made it through the Cultural Revolution and wushu had all of a sudden been revived throughout the country. Indeed, they might find it very advantageous to get noticed by the All-China Wushu Association or The Chinese State Commission for Physical Culture and Sports at the time. Once again, I'm not making accusations, I'm just simply speculating on certain possibilities.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Oh, and let me further say, anyone might want to say that if they made it through the Cultural Revolution and wushu had all of a sudden been revived throughout the country. Indeed, they might find it very advantageous to get noticed by the All-China Wushu Association or The Chinese State Commission for Physical Culture and Sports at the time. Once again, I'm not making accusations, I'm just simply speculating on certain possibilities.

It's a remnant from a long time ago, they practice in a remote area of Henan, and do these ancient sets. From what I know, they didn't even know that there was this bei Shailon / bak siulim style. They just knew that the monks that started their style left for Shandong way back when.

All these years and no one has heard much about them, I know about them from like 15 years ago when i was first doing research on various shaolin offshoots.
So, if they were looking for fame, they haven't done much about it.

Probably they were looking to not have fame, because of stuff like the cultural revolution.

Well, you make this stuff too scared, which it is not, just people teaching people stuff over time and place.

"They" aren't claiming anything, it is me doing that, by putting two and two together when comparing 'who taught what to whom, when and where".
Anthropology 101

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri
It's a remnant from a long time ago, they practice in a remote area of Henan, and do these ancient sets. From what I know, they didn't even know that there was this bei Shailon / bak siulim style. They just knew that the monks that started their style left for Shandong way back when.

All these years and no one has heard much about them, I know about them from like 15 years ago when i was first doing research on various shaolin offshoots.
So, if they were looking for fame, they haven't done much about it.

Probably they were looking to not have fame, because of stuff like the cultural revolution.

That's still not proof that whatever 10 sets their 13 sets were condensed into was, indeed, the ten sets that we find in Kuo Yu Chang's Bei Shaolin. With no documentation and just speculation to go on, there's still the possibility that the ten sets we're looking for here were not exactly the ten sets found in Bak Siu Lum. And since when is 13 a significant number in Buddhism? Why would the monks number them up to 13? 10 has always been a significant number in Buddhism (the 10 virtues of Buddhism, the 10 Buddhist precepts, etc.). The monks would have done nothing by chance. They wouldn't have just arbitrarily numbered their sets up to 13.

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri
Well, you make this stuff too scared, which it is not, just people teaching people stuff over time and place.

I'm sorry?

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri
"They" aren't claiming anything, it is me doing that, by putting two and two together when comparing 'who taught what to whom, when and where".
Anthropology 101

In Anthropology there are many theories that are proven to be wrong or increasingly problematic after new information is unearthed. There's that case of some of Chan Kwok Wai's students in South America finding one of Kuo Yu Chang's disciples just outside of Bejing. He was 90 something years old and he was saying that he attempted to teach Bei Shaolin secretly but the PRC kept stopping him from teaching the traditional way. They wanted him to wushuize his style and he refused so they banned him from teaching. If he was caught teaching the traditional way, he would be arrested. We'll never know what he would have had to say on this matter because he finally died a couple of years ago. Would anything he would have had to say have any merit in your eyes anyway? I'm sorry to hold you up to a more strict standard, but you are about to publish a book that will have information in it that will influence many peoples beliefs for a long time (or until some other work is published that refutes it). You are theorizing things about my style, about all Bak Siu Lum practitioners style, that may significantly sway peoples beliefs and opinions against the proported history of Bak Siu Lum. This could do a certain amount of damage to Kuo Yu Chang and Yim Chi Wen's legacies since neither they nor any of their students have ever mentioned a Kan Jia Chuan style having anything to do with theirs. And now you come along and change history. I suppose me and all of my kung fu brothers and all of their sifus around the world, should accept this version from now on?

[Siu Lum Fighter]

And I'm not trying to be bitter about all of this or anything like that. I would like nothing more than for Bei Shaolin to, at the very least, be considered an original Shaolin style along with all of the Lohan and various Cannon and Tongbei fist forms that are claimed to be authentic. There are, after all, many similarities between Songshan Shaolin and Bei Shaolin. This video is of Shi Yanzi demonstrating applications and postures found in both Songshan Shaolin and Bei Shaolin. His style seems very similar to that of a Bei Shaolin stylist in terms of how you would actually use Shaolin techniques. Some of those moves are basically the same ones found in the Bei Shaolin forms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93k9svGQJ0Y