I think forms suck

[Violent Designs]

They don't teach you any realistic fightin applications obviously.

So why are we wasting our times doing them.

Form suck!

/thread

[WinterPalm]

Good question.

Some forms offer benefits for the body in the form of different chi gongs...but you're better off drilling individual movements, sequencing them together, and free fighting then spending a lot of time on forms.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Forms are for people who want to earn trophies, but can't fight.

[Holle]

I'm not sure if this thread was meant as a jest, but here is just my opinion on forms and what has worked for me.

Actually forms serve as very useful purposes through it's repetition of movements in sequences.
1) Gung Fu is not all about fight, its also about health. Forms help build up strength and endurance. Forms can be done at different paces to meet different needs. If you execute your forms at a fast pace with alot of force you can develop your fast twitch muscles, external strength, and a little cardio.

When executing your forms at a slower pace, treating it like an isometric exercise, you can learn to develop your slow twitch muscles and internal strength. As you're able to build up your strength through your Gung Fu movements, you can increase the effectiveness of the movements; the development of your strength and Gung Fu will only complement each other.

2) Perfecting natural flow and mechanics. The repetition of movements in sequences allows the practitioner to build up "muscle memory" ,or the strengthening of neuron connections and activation. This muscle memory allows a practitioner to increase their strength and to smoothen their movements and transitions between movements.

Repetition of movements also allows someone to perfect their mechanics. A slight rotation of the arm here and a slight change in weight shift can make a big difference between power and weakness.

You can develop some of these things through free fighting and fighting applications, but in my opinion the process would take longer. When you're free fighting and doing fighting applications, you're focused more your opponent and what to do to your opponent than on your own body mechanics. Also when you're free fighting or doing fighting applications, you are not able to set a constant pace, but must adjust to your opponents pace.

Just as forms has it's place, so does free fighting and fighting applications. Free fighting and fighting applications help to bring out the practical uses of martial arts and acts as a gauge of one's strength and mechanics. Nothing is more real than fighting and making contact with a human body. Fighting allows someone to practice adjusting their movements, pace, and strength to adapt to someone else. Also fighting allows someone to see if their mechanics are effective when used against an opponent.

Even though no one wants to hear this, nothing comes easy; you need to practice constantly for years. If all you want to do is do forms and look pretty, then that's fine, but unrealistic. If all you want to do is fight, then that's fine too, but you'll be missing out on the original purpose of Gung Fu. Just like the ying and the yang, you need to have a balance of everything.

[Violent Designs]

I'm not sure if this thread was meant as a jest, but here is just my opinion on forms and what has worked for me.

Mostly in jest, but party serious. Despite my dislike for forms I still practice them as well, mostly for cardio and archival purposes.

Actually forms serve as very useful purposes through it's repetition of movements in sequences.
1) Gung Fu is not all about fight, its also about health. Forms help build up strength and endurance. Forms can be done at different paces to meet different needs. If you execute your forms at a fast pace with alot of force you can develop your fast twitch muscles, external strength, and a little cardio.

However I think those techniques are best practiced taken out, made into 2, 3, and 4-combo drills. You can drill these without resistance (shadowboxing), with pads, with a bag, with a tree, with a . . . whatever you come up with (creativity is key here !)

When executing your forms at a slower pace, treating it like an isometric exercise, you can learn to develop your slow twitch muscles and internal strength. As you're able to build up your strength through your Gung Fu movements, you can increase the effectiveness of the movements; the development of your strength and Gung Fu will only complement each other.

I don't know about the twitch muscles. I guess it depends on your system, right? As in Southern Mantis would be more in line with developing your "twitch" muscles and Choy Lay Fut would more or less work out your whipping power . . .

On this note, I have placed forms into two categories: the first, are the showy, flashy, fast forms. I'm a CLF man and has always been, but CLF forms are for the most part, great for cardio, not so great for building power. However I can run or skip the rope as well.

Stuff like Hung Ga Kuen and SPM allows you to practice everything in a slow, grueling, tiresome fashion. Endless amounts of dynamic tension coupled, and you can go even further by adding weights to the body, arms, and legs. Once again, how hard you push yourself is up to the individual. As such, I see more VALUE in these "types" of forms, where the exercises themselves are there for MORE than just techniques, or patterns - they are designed to build your root, foundation, and structure more than anything. You may even get a bit of power and explosiveness out of them, although this may not be much (compared to say hitting bags and stuff).

2) Perfecting natural flow and mechanics. The repetition of movements in sequences allows the practitioner to build up "muscle memory" ,or the strengthening of neuron connections and activation. This muscle memory allows a practitioner to increase their strength and to smoothen their movements and transitions between movements.

I agree with you to an extent. It depends on the system. Choy Lay Fut for example is too right-hand biased for me. I practice almost all of my forms reversed now, based on left-hand bias instead of right. I'm a fanatic with balance . . . ambidexterity, that's just my thing anyway. All the Hung Ga I'm doing so far focuses on the right and left equally.

Repetition of movements also allows someone to perfect their mechanics. A slight rotation of the arm here and a slight change in weight shift can make a big difference between power and weakness.

Absolutely agreed with you. But hitting things is BETTER for perfecting fighting and power generating mechanics because you get FEEDBACK. You don't get feedback from punching the air.

You can develop some of these things through free fighting and fighting applications, but in my opinion the process would take longer. When you're free fighting and doing fighting applications, you're focused more your opponent and what to do to your opponent than on your own body mechanics. Also when you're free fighting or doing fighting applications, you are not able to set a constant pace, but must adjust to your opponents pace.

A good martial artists shouldn't be looking to spar every single time. Sometimes it's better to settle down, re-examine what you know, and look to refine things. Also most of the "sparring" done in your own gym or school shouldn't be full contact. That's what you reserve for your enemies and rivals.

Just as forms has it's place, so does free fighting and fighting applications. Free fighting and fighting applications help to bring out the practical uses of martial arts and acts as a gauge of one's strength and mechanics. Nothing is more real than fighting and making contact with a human body. Fighting allows someone to practice adjusting their movements, pace, and strength to adapt to someone else. Also fighting allows someone to see if their mechanics are effective when used against an opponent.

Yep yep.

Even though no one wants to hear this, nothing comes easy; you need to practice constantly for years. If all you want to do is do forms and look pretty, then that's fine, but unrealistic. If all you want to do is fight, then that's fine too, but you'll be missing out on the original purpose of Gung Fu. Just like the ying and the yang, you need to have a balance of everything.

Cool we agree on most things I just pointed out some things I might differ with slightly but I do like your style.

Peace

[Holle]

However I think those techniques are best practiced taken out, made into 2, 3, and 4-combo drills. You can drill these without resistance (shadowboxing), with pads, with a bag, with a tree, with a . . . whatever you come up with (creativity is key here !)

I agree. I like to practice the forms in it's entirety and then in 3, 5, and 7 combos.

I don't know about the twitch muscles. I guess it depends on your system, right? As in Southern Mantis would be more in line with developing your "twitch" muscles and Choy Lay Fut would more or less work out your whipping power . . .

On this note, I have placed forms into two categories: the first, are the showy, flashy, fast forms. I'm a CLF man and has always been, but CLF forms are for the most part, great for cardio, not so great for building power. However I can run or skip the rope as well.

Sorry, what I meant by twitch was muscles. Fast and slow twitch is just another way of describing different muscle types. For example distance runners, yoga practitioners, and isometric exercises develop more of the slower, endurance muscles. The flashy, showy forms develop the faster muscles. I too am a CLF man and yes, alot of our forms use alot of external strength. I'm not sure about your lineage of CLF, but in ours we have two internal forms: 5 animals and the straight sword.

Stuff like Hung Ga Kuen and SPM allows you to practice everything in a slow, grueling, tiresome fashion. Endless amounts of dynamic tension coupled, and you can go even further by adding weights to the body, arms, and legs. Once again, how hard you push yourself is up to the individual. As such, I see more VALUE in these "types" of forms, where the exercises themselves are there for MORE than just techniques, or patterns - they are designed to build your root, foundation, and structure more than anything. You may even get a bit of power and explosiveness out of them, although this may not be much (compared to say hitting bags and stuff).

Wow, that seems like an interesting style and i can see why you would see more value in those kind of forms. Someone from my school told me that every form (HSCLF) is an internal form. Turning a fast, external form into an internal form by slowing down the movements, stretching out the arms and holding the tension. I guess the concept sounds similar to the Hung Ga Kuen.

I agree with you to an extent. It depends on the system. Choy Lay Fut for example is too right-hand biased for me. I practice almost all of my forms reversed now, based on left-hand bias instead of right. I'm a fanatic with balance . . . ambidexterity, that's just my thing anyway. All the Hung Ga I'm doing so far focuses on the right and left equally.

Yea, I practice the right handed CLF forms on the left hand side too for balance. So how long have you been learning Hung Ga? So cool, on the most part we can agree on the same things.

[specialed]

1) Gung Fu is not all about fight, its also about health. Forms help build up strength and endurance. Forms can be done at different paces to meet different needs. If you execute your forms at a fast pace with alot of force you can develop your fast twitch muscles, external strength, and a little cardio.

Whoever taught you this LIED. This is what happens when people who do fight, never fought, and have no idea how to fight, teach martial arts.

[Exadon]

Whoever taught you this LIED. This is what happens when people who do fight, never fought, and have no idea how to fight, teach martial arts.

What part of what he said do you believe was a lie? Just wondering.


I enjoy forms.
I think they serve the same purpose as any other reputation practice. Learn how to hold stances, learn how to execute moves, and a way to learn various techniques
Also well performed forms are clearly a form of Art much like Dance and/or Gymnastics.

Complex forms require a lot of control over body and mind

[uki]

forms are expressions of oneself... a persons style is a reflection of their self.

Forms are for people who want to earn trophies, but can't fight.

hohohohoHAHAHAHAHA!!! aww man, you're killing me here. so how many trophies do you have?

[Lucas]

forms are just for people who can draw value from them. some do some dont.

the real context here comes down to a persons goals as well as their resources.

but of course, we all already knew this, right?

[MightyB]

They don't teach you any realistic fightin applications obviously.

So why are we wasting our times doing them.

Form suck!

/thread

I think you're a douche.

word of the day--- DOUCHE

[Lucas]

I think you're a douche.

word of the day--- DOUCHE

lol.

how douchey of you to say so my douchey friend.

[Lucas]

I think you're a douche.

word of the day--- DOUCHE

wait is this like pee wee's play house, do i have to yell every time you post that now?

[MightyB]

wait is this like pee wee's play house, do i have to yell every time you post that now?

yes -

Douche

"Ahhhhhhhhh!"

[Lucas]

aaaahhhhhhahahaha