Page 1 of 36 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 539

Thread: I think forms suck

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,206

    I think forms suck

    They don't teach you any realistic fightin applications obviously.

    So why are we wasting our times doing them.

    Form suck!

    /thread
    It is bias to think that the art of war is just for killing people. It is not to kill people, it is to kill evil. It is a strategem to give life to many people by killing the evil of one person.
    - Yagyū Munenori

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    On the mat.
    Posts
    1,682
    Good question.

    Some forms offer benefits for the body in the form of different chi gongs...but you're better off drilling individual movements, sequencing them together, and free fighting then spending a lot of time on forms.
    A unique snowflake

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    In a Galaxy Far, Far Away
    Posts
    1,115
    Forms are for people who want to earn trophies, but can't fight.
    ------
    Jason

    --Keep talking and I'm gonna serve you dinner...by opening up a can of "whoop-ass" and for dessert, a slice of Lama Pai!

    God gave us free will. Therefore he is pro-choice.

  4. #4
    I'm not sure if this thread was meant as a jest, but here is just my opinion on forms and what has worked for me.

    Actually forms serve as very useful purposes through it's repetition of movements in sequences.
    1) Gung Fu is not all about fight, its also about health. Forms help build up strength and endurance. Forms can be done at different paces to meet different needs. If you execute your forms at a fast pace with alot of force you can develop your fast twitch muscles, external strength, and a little cardio.

    When executing your forms at a slower pace, treating it like an isometric exercise, you can learn to develop your slow twitch muscles and internal strength. As you're able to build up your strength through your Gung Fu movements, you can increase the effectiveness of the movements; the development of your strength and Gung Fu will only complement each other.

    2) Perfecting natural flow and mechanics. The repetition of movements in sequences allows the practitioner to build up "muscle memory" ,or the strengthening of neuron connections and activation. This muscle memory allows a practitioner to increase their strength and to smoothen their movements and transitions between movements.

    Repetition of movements also allows someone to perfect their mechanics. A slight rotation of the arm here and a slight change in weight shift can make a big difference between power and weakness.

    You can develop some of these things through free fighting and fighting applications, but in my opinion the process would take longer. When you're free fighting and doing fighting applications, you're focused more your opponent and what to do to your opponent than on your own body mechanics. Also when you're free fighting or doing fighting applications, you are not able to set a constant pace, but must adjust to your opponents pace.

    Just as forms has it's place, so does free fighting and fighting applications. Free fighting and fighting applications help to bring out the practical uses of martial arts and acts as a gauge of one's strength and mechanics. Nothing is more real than fighting and making contact with a human body. Fighting allows someone to practice adjusting their movements, pace, and strength to adapt to someone else. Also fighting allows someone to see if their mechanics are effective when used against an opponent.

    Even though no one wants to hear this, nothing comes easy; you need to practice constantly for years. If all you want to do is do forms and look pretty, then that's fine, but unrealistic. If all you want to do is fight, then that's fine too, but you'll be missing out on the original purpose of Gung Fu. Just like the ying and the yang, you need to have a balance of everything.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,206
    Quote Originally Posted by Holle View Post
    I'm not sure if this thread was meant as a jest, but here is just my opinion on forms and what has worked for me.
    Mostly in jest, but party serious. Despite my dislike for forms I still practice them as well, mostly for cardio and archival purposes.

    Actually forms serve as very useful purposes through it's repetition of movements in sequences.
    1) Gung Fu is not all about fight, its also about health. Forms help build up strength and endurance. Forms can be done at different paces to meet different needs. If you execute your forms at a fast pace with alot of force you can develop your fast twitch muscles, external strength, and a little cardio.
    However I think those techniques are best practiced taken out, made into 2, 3, and 4-combo drills. You can drill these without resistance (shadowboxing), with pads, with a bag, with a tree, with a . . . whatever you come up with (creativity is key here !)

    When executing your forms at a slower pace, treating it like an isometric exercise, you can learn to develop your slow twitch muscles and internal strength. As you're able to build up your strength through your Gung Fu movements, you can increase the effectiveness of the movements; the development of your strength and Gung Fu will only complement each other.
    I don't know about the twitch muscles. I guess it depends on your system, right? As in Southern Mantis would be more in line with developing your "twitch" muscles and Choy Lay Fut would more or less work out your whipping power . . .

    On this note, I have placed forms into two categories: the first, are the showy, flashy, fast forms. I'm a CLF man and has always been, but CLF forms are for the most part, great for cardio, not so great for building power. However I can run or skip the rope as well.

    Stuff like Hung Ga Kuen and SPM allows you to practice everything in a slow, grueling, tiresome fashion. Endless amounts of dynamic tension coupled, and you can go even further by adding weights to the body, arms, and legs. Once again, how hard you push yourself is up to the individual. As such, I see more VALUE in these "types" of forms, where the exercises themselves are there for MORE than just techniques, or patterns - they are designed to build your root, foundation, and structure more than anything. You may even get a bit of power and explosiveness out of them, although this may not be much (compared to say hitting bags and stuff).

    2) Perfecting natural flow and mechanics. The repetition of movements in sequences allows the practitioner to build up "muscle memory" ,or the strengthening of neuron connections and activation. This muscle memory allows a practitioner to increase their strength and to smoothen their movements and transitions between movements.
    I agree with you to an extent. It depends on the system. Choy Lay Fut for example is too right-hand biased for me. I practice almost all of my forms reversed now, based on left-hand bias instead of right. I'm a fanatic with balance . . . ambidexterity, that's just my thing anyway. All the Hung Ga I'm doing so far focuses on the right and left equally.

    Repetition of movements also allows someone to perfect their mechanics. A slight rotation of the arm here and a slight change in weight shift can make a big difference between power and weakness.
    Absolutely agreed with you. But hitting things is BETTER for perfecting fighting and power generating mechanics because you get FEEDBACK. You don't get feedback from punching the air.

    You can develop some of these things through free fighting and fighting applications, but in my opinion the process would take longer. When you're free fighting and doing fighting applications, you're focused more your opponent and what to do to your opponent than on your own body mechanics. Also when you're free fighting or doing fighting applications, you are not able to set a constant pace, but must adjust to your opponents pace.
    A good martial artists shouldn't be looking to spar every single time. Sometimes it's better to settle down, re-examine what you know, and look to refine things. Also most of the "sparring" done in your own gym or school shouldn't be full contact. That's what you reserve for your enemies and rivals.

    Just as forms has it's place, so does free fighting and fighting applications. Free fighting and fighting applications help to bring out the practical uses of martial arts and acts as a gauge of one's strength and mechanics. Nothing is more real than fighting and making contact with a human body. Fighting allows someone to practice adjusting their movements, pace, and strength to adapt to someone else. Also fighting allows someone to see if their mechanics are effective when used against an opponent.
    Yep yep.

    Even though no one wants to hear this, nothing comes easy; you need to practice constantly for years. If all you want to do is do forms and look pretty, then that's fine, but unrealistic. If all you want to do is fight, then that's fine too, but you'll be missing out on the original purpose of Gung Fu. Just like the ying and the yang, you need to have a balance of everything.
    Cool we agree on most things I just pointed out some things I might differ with slightly but I do like your style.

    Peace
    It is bias to think that the art of war is just for killing people. It is not to kill people, it is to kill evil. It is a strategem to give life to many people by killing the evil of one person.
    - Yagyū Munenori

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Designs View Post
    However I think those techniques are best practiced taken out, made into 2, 3, and 4-combo drills. You can drill these without resistance (shadowboxing), with pads, with a bag, with a tree, with a . . . whatever you come up with (creativity is key here !)
    I agree. I like to practice the forms in it's entirety and then in 3, 5, and 7 combos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Designs View Post
    I don't know about the twitch muscles. I guess it depends on your system, right? As in Southern Mantis would be more in line with developing your "twitch" muscles and Choy Lay Fut would more or less work out your whipping power . . .

    On this note, I have placed forms into two categories: the first, are the showy, flashy, fast forms. I'm a CLF man and has always been, but CLF forms are for the most part, great for cardio, not so great for building power. However I can run or skip the rope as well.
    Sorry, what I meant by twitch was muscles. Fast and slow twitch is just another way of describing different muscle types. For example distance runners, yoga practitioners, and isometric exercises develop more of the slower, endurance muscles. The flashy, showy forms develop the faster muscles. I too am a CLF man and yes, alot of our forms use alot of external strength. I'm not sure about your lineage of CLF, but in ours we have two internal forms: 5 animals and the straight sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Designs View Post
    Stuff like Hung Ga Kuen and SPM allows you to practice everything in a slow, grueling, tiresome fashion. Endless amounts of dynamic tension coupled, and you can go even further by adding weights to the body, arms, and legs. Once again, how hard you push yourself is up to the individual. As such, I see more VALUE in these "types" of forms, where the exercises themselves are there for MORE than just techniques, or patterns - they are designed to build your root, foundation, and structure more than anything. You may even get a bit of power and explosiveness out of them, although this may not be much (compared to say hitting bags and stuff).
    Wow, that seems like an interesting style and i can see why you would see more value in those kind of forms. Someone from my school told me that every form (HSCLF) is an internal form. Turning a fast, external form into an internal form by slowing down the movements, stretching out the arms and holding the tension. I guess the concept sounds similar to the Hung Ga Kuen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Designs View Post
    I agree with you to an extent. It depends on the system. Choy Lay Fut for example is too right-hand biased for me. I practice almost all of my forms reversed now, based on left-hand bias instead of right. I'm a fanatic with balance . . . ambidexterity, that's just my thing anyway. All the Hung Ga I'm doing so far focuses on the right and left equally.
    Yea, I practice the right handed CLF forms on the left hand side too for balance. So how long have you been learning Hung Ga? So cool, on the most part we can agree on the same things.
    Last edited by Holle; 02-19-2009 at 08:30 PM.
    "When your Gung Fu is strong, you can afford to be merciful"

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,206
    Hung Ga for a few months.

    I sent you a PM btw. Can I ask who your sifu is/where you train?

    Hung Sing as in Jeong Yim HS, or Chan Family?

    Always good to talk to a CLF brother.
    It is bias to think that the art of war is just for killing people. It is not to kill people, it is to kill evil. It is a strategem to give life to many people by killing the evil of one person.
    - Yagyū Munenori

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Ny
    Posts
    79
    you guys make me laugh
    "forms suck"
    "but i do them because they benefit me"
    ha
    Set your mind.
    Refuse to be weak,
    Refuse to be sick,
    Refuse to die.
    Think that you are strong and you are

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Ny
    Posts
    79
    "Forms are for people who want to earn trophies, but can't fight."
    __________________


    Green cloud, you forgot to preface that statement with studies show, and every one in the martial arts community agrees that Forms are for people who want to earn trophies, but can't fight.
    __________________
    Set your mind.
    Refuse to be weak,
    Refuse to be sick,
    Refuse to die.
    Think that you are strong and you are

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Newcastle upon tyne, UK
    Posts
    422
    Most People's forms suck!!!!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,206
    Quote Originally Posted by eomonroe00 View Post
    you guys make me laugh
    "forms suck"
    "but i do them because they benefit me"
    ha
    You don't get it do you. You don't get the trend.

    Oh well.
    It is bias to think that the art of war is just for killing people. It is not to kill people, it is to kill evil. It is a strategem to give life to many people by killing the evil of one person.
    - Yagyū Munenori

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    10,532
    Blog Entries
    6
    3, 5, and 7 combos...........hmmmmm........i wonder if that's a typical CLF thing, or what? in MY lineage, that's what we do....3-5-7 combo's.

    anyways, i've stayed away from this thread cause i don't feel like getting into a big debate over forms.

    DO FORMS HAVE ANY PRACTICAL AND ACTUAL FIGHTING BENEFITS? YES, AND NO. In my opinion, forms has its purpose, and everyone here was fine with forms until the emergence of the UFC and MMA. Now, when people are faced with the fact that they placed too much of their time and effort into learning how to dance (forms) instead of learning HOW TO USE their martial arts effectively in real life, or competition fighting settings.

    It's funny to see some styles and schools scrambling to adjust to the current trend the martial art world is going. The great thing about having a teacher who is a real fighter, he is going to show you how to use what's in the forms.

    it's my strong opinion, that FORMS are the blueprints to the style you are learning.

    But, when it comes to fighting, if you have NO forms, then how do you know to execute the style as it was taught to you? without them, EVERYONE would just look like kick boxers.

    Although I focus on the real life fighting aspects of MY lineage, i still practice forms. I have this saying that i pass on to my students all the time. "at the end of one helluva hard day, when no one respects you, treats you right, your girl left you for the geek down the street, you will always have your gung fu to fall back on.

    I know for a fact, that after a hard day, or a stressful one, and i don't feel like working with a partner, all i have to do is my forms once or twice, and ALL IS OKAY again.

    I will say this, FORMS EXISTED LONG BEFORE ANYONE HERE ON THIS FORUM WAS EVER BORN. so who are WE to change that?

    If you don't like forms......simply.....DON'T DO THEM.
    If you DO like forms, PERFECT THEM, because there ARE things to unlock in them.
    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Canada!
    Posts
    23,109
    Take your forms.

    Break them down into the parts.

    take each part and drill it.

    now take that drill and apply it to pads and heavy bags

    now take that drill and do it with a partenr.

    now take that drill and apply it in sparring starting with low level intensity and working to higher levels of intensity where you are presented with gates/leaks/opportunities to use the extrapolated technique drawn from the form.

    now go free style with the style you have taken the technique from that you have worked in the previous method.

    If you think forms are stupid, you don't understand the method they employ or how to properly use the entire method of form use, learning and skill development.

    other people who don't like forms don't know any or don't know any that are of any consequence.

    if you can't remember a simple pattern and use it as a learning tool for all it's parts, then you are a dummy and it's not the tool that is stupid, it's the monkey who doesn't know how to use the tool that's stupid. lol

    but by all means, keep thinking that the hammer is a screwdriver. hahahaha
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Huntington, NY, USA website: TenTigers.com
    Posts
    7,718
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    take each part and drill it.

    now take that drill and apply it to pads and heavy bags

    now take that drill and do it with a partenr.
    That is how I teach forms at my school. After all that is done, THEN I teach them the form from which the drills came. They learn it easier, they understand its meaning, and they don't end up as monkeys with tools.

    Forms are your style's textbook, and were traditionally taught last, if at all. In many cases, only to lineage bearors, as that is how the system was passed down, intact from generation to generation.

    If you don't like forms, and you have a wonderful notebook, or several volumes, filled with info on drills, applications, fighting techniques, training methods, hei-gung, noi-gung, etc, Fine.

    But when you lose your notebook, or your students wish to teach, everything you devoted your life to is gone. You, and your training will not even be a memory.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    Forms are your style's textbook, and were traditionally taught last, if at all. In many cases, only to lineage bearors, as that is how the system was passed down, intact from generation to generation.

    If you don't like forms, and you have a wonderful notebook, or several volumes, filled with info on drills, applications, fighting techniques, training methods, hei-gung, noi-gung, etc, Fine.

    But when you lose your notebook, or your students wish to teach, everything you devoted your life to is gone. You, and your training will not even be a memory.
    actually, when you are illiterate and so are your students, then the notebook option is not available, so that's why you need the forms...the ideal of the scholar-warrior is mostly a myth (punctuated with a few exceptions, of course);

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •