Page 36 of 36 FirstFirst ... 26343536
Results 526 to 539 of 539

Thread: I think forms suck

  1. #526
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    964
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    Actually, you could use the same example to demonstrate what CG tries to achieve.
    Something to remember with that example is that although chimps have bigger, stronger joints and smaller muscles than humans, they are in peak health, they are MUSCULAR, and they have mass - adults can weigh 150+lbs.

    Mass is an important factor no matter how you're training. Some Martial Artists like to keep their mass around their Dan Tian ( ); as long as they have strong joints, good structure, and smart tactics, then they should be ok against most people. I prefer to distribute mass as muscle: muscle is healthier metabolically, and a certain degree of muscularity complements and enhances the joints' capabilities... and there are no fat chimps.


    I can explain in a general manner without being explicit as these aspects of training are not for discussion on internet forums.
    I disagree. This forum is a perfect place to discuss training risks/benefits.

    However, I can make the general statement that says that weight training will negate this particular style's body unity principles
    In what way? Is there a concern that training specific muscles (such as the biceps) in isolation will detract from functional unity?

    Modern athletic training has addressed this issue by making as much of the training as FUNCTIONAL as possible. That is, muscles are not trained in isolation: they are trained together in as close to an environment and situation as the real thing. Modern athletic training is much different than it used to be. Today it can include joint realignment and strengthening, core realignment and strengthening, Nervous system refinement, nutrition, functional plyometrics, functional weight training, stretching/relaxation, play practice, visualization, counselling, and rest.

    as well as creating "stiff" power/strength, which is to be avoided in favor of relaxed power, while appreciating the fact that there are other styles that use relaxed power also practicing "careful" weight training.
    Relaxed power is important, I agree. The stiffer you are, the less adaptive and connected you are.

    According to your profile you practice Internal kung fu, so I am supposing that what I have said will be adequate to give you an idea.
    Everyone gets ideas.

    It is good to corresponde with people who actually train kung fu, even if you use certain different TCMA practices.
    Most of the people I discuss with on here train Kung Fu. I enjoy discussing with them, as well as with non-kung fu people.


    There are styles of Internal TCMAs that do not use weight training in their power/strength building methodology as this will negate certain results that they aim to achieve.

    I can also add, so as to be clear:

    1. I am not saying that all other styles of kung fu are bad!LOL

    2. I am not saying that I have the real kung fu and no one else has ! LOL

    3. I am not saying that weight training is not used in other kung fu styles! LOL

    4. I am not saying that weight training should not be used in authentic TCMA training! LOL
    K. Glad that's cleared up. Moving on.

    So, my statement is a simple statement. It is clear. However, the concept is not clear as it is an unusual one to start with and it is unknown to people who have not had access to genuine kung fu schools
    Seriously, you should start a thread specifically about sinew/tendon changing methods, what kinds there are, and who practices them. The one I know is actually a Daoist Yi Jin Jing method called "Heavy Hands."


    and/or others who have spent their lives jumping from one MA to another (sometimes even contradicting styles)
    travelling/moving wreaks havoc on traditional martial arts training.

    and because they had done "kung fu" along the way, mistakenly think that they know all there is to know and that if they haven't heard of a certain TCMA methodology then they can just go ahead and dispute, criticize and ridicule the person who brings it up, even chasing away new posters who are ACTUAL traditionalists.
    I'm sure this happens. I'm also sure that there are traditionalists who may chase away posters by behaving similarly to what you say above. On the list of first impressions, Physical skill is often trumped by Communications skill.

    Yes, there are a lot of fragile egos here and they are fragile because they lack SUBSTANCE and ESSENCE regarding authentic TCMA training and knowledge.
    Ego or not, I recommend EVERYONE gets counselling (I did.) And trains hard. And keeps an open mind. And respects others. Everyone.

    You were here all the way. How many of these guys came out and said, sorry we don't know about this methodology? NO one! How many knew of this methodology? No one!
    To be fair, you all weren't being very clear. Maybe there was too much defensiveness and aggression on everyone's part.

    You and Ten Tigers are the only ones who made sense in this subject area. Why? Because you actually practice the relevant arts. IT IS THAT SIMPLE!
    My grandmother died of Alzheimers. About 2 years before she died, she entered a phase of the disease which gave her a rare type of aphasia. She could speak clearly, she just didn't "make sense." The nurses and my family thought she had completely lost touch with reality. Turns out, she knew exactly what she meant, she just couldn't say it.
    "I'm a double agent," she proudly exclaimed one day.
    "Oh really," I said.
    "Yes," she said proudly, "In the morning, the Catholics are everywhere, so I pretend to be a Catholic and work for the Catholics. Then in the afternoon they leave and the Protestants come in and I pretend to be a Protestant, and work for them! BUT, I tell them what the Catholics are up to, and then the next day I tell the Catholics what the Protestants are up to! I'm a double agent!"

    "Uh-huh," I said. Then it dawned on me. She was talking about the nurses shifts.

    Sometimes, instead of just dismissing someone as crazy, ignorant, or lacking in knowledge, take a moment to ask yourself how what they're saying COULD constructively benefit the discussion, and ask yourself how what you say possibly COULD be interpreted by others. Clear comprehension and clear communication work together.
    Last edited by Xiao3 Meng4; 11-25-2009 at 02:36 AM.
    "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own." -Cicero

  2. #527
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    Actually, there is "secret" training, or at least training that is not shared with everyone.
    I am not speaking of some unscrupulous Sifu dangling a carrott, or milking his students to pay more for inner door discipleship. There are simply some systems and teachers who prefer not to share a particular method or skill with others. That's his business. But it does exist, always has, always will.

    BTW-one man's "secret technique" may be another's standard operating procedure.

    And simply because it's a "secret," doesn't make it better or fabulous.
    Your Sifu's "secret" internal training, may be something that you have no desire to learn. If my Sifu has secret iron crotch training, which required hanging weights from "The Hammer of the Godz," I would most likely decline-especially if they attach with fish hooks.

    Sometimes, a technique is closed door, only because it requires one on one training, and cannot be done in a group. Face it, Gung -Fu requires hands on, direct transmission. Once you teach to the masses, many things get lost. Sure, you can drill, do line drills, hit the bags, and do reaction drills. But there are many sensitivity/reaction drills, and specific qualities of energy, that must be felt, and cannot be learned just by simply watching, or following along.

    As far as forms go, are the neccesary for skill development? Yes and No.
    There are certain systems that have forms that are what we refer to as, "developmental," and are a series of specific drills.
    One can argue, then just do the drills. In many cases, this is exactly what is taught. For example: Sam Bo Ging has the "three power strike" performed 4 times. The student is then told to do that particular movement 108 (or whatever, an arbitrary number) times.
    In Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, there are several positions the student goes through in the opening sequence-two hands cutting down, two hands pulling up and then extending forward, etc. These movements are to be done separately, 100 times (or whatever)
    There are forms that are drills divided into segments, where each segment brings the breath/specific contractions to different parts of the body in a specific sequence.
    As far as doing a form with a bunch of combinations and thinking it is a substitute for fighting? Stupid is as stupid does.
    Forms used as textbooks or catalogues of the system need not be taught to anyone but those who desire to pass down the system. Sure, you can substitute a notebook, or just have a great memory. Whatever floats yer boat. Many systems were passed down without forms. Judo, jiu-jutsu (although they actually do have "kata") Aikido, many chin-na based systems, it seems do not use forms, but still have a very structured method of teaching.
    Rik makes some valid pints.
    Of course we also need to realize that the "secret" training of yesteryear can be the SOP of today.
    We know so much more about the human body and its ability to perform than people did 100 years ago, much less 300 or more.
    We know about the different types of muscles fibers and energy pathways, the different types of strength training, different types of cardiovascular endurance, muscular endurance.
    We know what can be strengthened and what can't, we know what effects that body and what doesn't, we know the effectiveness of even the "placebo effect".
    We know why something if done 1000 times over a short period increase short term muscles memory and why, if one wants long term muscle memory, one shoudl do less resp over a longer period.
    Not too long ago everyone "knew" that moderate, low intensity cardio was the best, then came HIIT and knocked that on its arse.
    Everyone "knew" that "weight training" made you stiff and along came studeis that showed that Olympic lifters had some of the greatest range of flexablity of olympic athletes.

    Fact is, too many people in the MA continue to be stuck in doing things the old way when in fact, the reason it was done that way was because it was the best way AT the time and they ignore that, if there are better ways today, then do them.

    EX:
    We don't need stone weights anymore because we have metal ones.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  3. #528
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Huntington, NY, USA website: TenTigers.com
    Posts
    7,718
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    I

    I can explain in a general manner without being explicit as these aspects of training are not for discussion on internet forums.
    HW108
    Actually, you can be as explicit as you want. You can put it on DVD, write an article in a magazine, post it all over the internet, do a public demonstration.
    The fact of the matter is, some skills are solely learned through feel. This is direct transmission. You need to feel what is being taught to you.

    Recently, I posted some methodology of SPM, and a friend said,"What are you doing? You're giving out our information." I answered, "What am I giving? I'm not giving away any deep dark secrets. If you could learn a system's technique from simply reading about it, trust me, It ain't a deep dark secret worth hiding."

    Even with direct transmission, you don't get it right away. Your teacher can show you over and over again, but it still takes time for it to sink in, or "take." Sometimes years, and then suddenly, "A-HA!"
    (sometimes not. Some people never get it)
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  4. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Come on what do you know its not like you have actually been a closed door student of a respected master or anything like that
    the reason guys like hardwork froth at the mouth like rapid dogs when I appear is that I have seen as much, most likely MORE kung fu at the highest level than 95% of this forum. While there is much to value in TCMA (heck, a good part of what I still teach is TCMA technique) I can tell you that when people ramble on like HARDWORK, THERE IS NO DOUBT THEY HAVE LEARNED NOTHING REAL
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  5. #530
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    4,381
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    the reason guys like hardwork froth at the mouth like rapid dogs when I appear is that I have seen as much, most likely MORE kung fu at the highest level than 95% of this forum. While there is much to value in TCMA (heck, a good part of what I still teach is TCMA technique) I can tell you that when people ramble on like HARDWORK, THERE IS NO DOUBT THEY HAVE LEARNED NOTHING REAL
    I think anyone who has actually experienced training with a real linage holder can smell what hardwork is about, its just fascinating how he can make a thread almost 40 pages long by essentially writing the same thing over and over

  6. #531
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    Actually, you can be as explicit as you want. You can put it on DVD, write an article in a magazine, post it all over the internet, do a public demonstration.
    The fact of the matter is, some skills are solely learned through feel. This is direct transmission. You need to feel what is being taught to you.

    Recently, I posted some methodology of SPM, and a friend said,"What are you doing? You're giving out our information." I answered, "What am I giving? I'm not giving away any deep dark secrets. If you could learn a system's technique from simply reading about it, trust me, It ain't a deep dark secret worth hiding."

    Even with direct transmission, you don't get it right away. Your teacher can show you over and over again, but it still takes time for it to sink in, or "take." Sometimes years, and then suddenly, "A-HA!"
    (sometimes not. Some people never get it)
    Not too long ago I was speaking with my HK teacher after one of his training sessions at his home and I asked him why he kept certain things from the public, it was that he didn;'t teach everything, he left out many details of certain things.
    He replied, "I didn't teach them to you either, or my son".
    I Countered that indeed he did.
    He said,"Nope, You got there and I showed you what you "got", that is not the same thing".
    He was right.
    At the same time though, it does depend what one goes to a teacher for.
    When I took up with him again ( he had been my teacher before he retired) I was looking to fight, for fighting effectiveness and I sure got it and the bruises and broken bones that go with it.
    But after wards, when we "hooked' up agian, fighting was the goal, nor was being part of any lineage or "group", it was a very personal journey for me and he understood that and taught me accordingly.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  7. #532
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Try to keep on topic guys.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #533
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Huntington, NY, USA website: TenTigers.com
    Posts
    7,718
    we all know what he's saying, and there is some validity to it. Just don't go on for twenty pages about it.
    You don't have to post entire pages of quotes, or quote someone's entire post.
    Just try to be a little more clear and concise.
    Also, stop being insulting. You don't have to bring up "clueless" sanjuro, or LKFMDC, or anyone else. Just say your point.
    Sure, some may still post an insulting remark here or there, but you can ignore them.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  9. #534
    The "some get it, most don't" thing is wide spread in TCMA.... of course the modern paradigm of teaching doesn't embrace that idea, and a lot of your paying students would balk if you flat out told them you weren't going to bother going out of your way to help them learn the necessary skills

    Much of the "in the door" teachings aren't technique as much as theory, strategy, CONTEXT and integration. The idea that you are going to learn "Dr Wong's secret killing technique #12" and suddenly have skill when previously you didn't is the red headed step child we beat up here regularly
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  10. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    I think anyone who has actually experienced training with a real linage holder can smell what hardwork is about, its just fascinating how he can make a thread almost 40 pages long by essentially writing the same thing over and over
    yeah, "smell", definitely the right word in this case
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  11. #536
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    4,381
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    The "some get it, most don't" thing is wide spread in TCMA.... of course the modern paradigm of teaching doesn't embrace that idea, and a lot of your paying students would balk if you flat out told them you weren't going to bother going out of your way to help them learn the necessary skills

    Much of the "in the door" teachings aren't technique as much as theory, strategy, CONTEXT and integration. The idea that you are going to learn "Dr Wong's secret killing technique #12" and suddenly have skill when previously you didn't is the red headed step child we beat up here regularly

    would you stop making sense please that is going way off topic on this thread

  12. #537
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    we all know what he's saying, and there is some validity to it. Just don't go on for twenty pages about it.
    You don't have to post entire pages of quotes, or quote someone's entire post.
    Just try to be a little more clear and concise.
    Also, stop being insulting. You don't have to bring up "clueless" sanjuro, or LKFMDC, or anyone else. Just say your point.
    Sure, some may still post an insulting remark here or there, but you can ignore them.
    The issue isn't whether someone has a valid point, the issue is, "so what?"
    Are the majority of MA crap?
    That depends, what are you looking for?
    If you are looking for fighting effectivenss then ANY school that doesn't fight and fight hard, consistently is crap, so I would say that a huge majority is crap, including all those that focus on forms.
    But that is irrelevant to those NOT interested in fighting.

    I can't tell you how many times I have had to "wake people up" to the reality of MA, people living in a "fog" that is exemplified by this boorish mentality of " I have the real kung fu".
    Guess what, unless you can kick my ass with it, MY kung fu is better than yours, period.
    And that, gentlemen, is what, in the end, MA is about and what proves superiour MA ability.
    What I can do with it.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  13. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    would you stop making sense please that is going way off topic on this thread
    yeah, what was I thinking....

    "I learned something secretly under a master who I don't want to name, and you don't know it, can't understand it and that makes me better than you, neener neener neener"

    back on topic
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  14. #539
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    I think that all that can be said, has been said.
    I think that we have enough pages in this thread, so unless I hear back from the creator of this thread, its locked to keep things under control.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •