I think forms suck

[Frost]

who thinks they make you an effective fighter? they give you certain attributes like smoothness and coordination that can help in a fight but certainly just doing forms isnt enough it is merely a small piece of a big puzzle

They give you smoothness doing the forms that does not translate into smoothness in fighting.

And smoothness can come from actually sparring, hitting the pads etc as can coordination and that transfers better over into actual fighting as the stress you are under is closer to what you will feel in an actual fight

[goju]

Umm fedor doesn’t, who are you to argue with him?

my money would be on bas in a fight

so again......

[goju]

They give you smoothness doing the forms that does not translate into smoothness in fighting.

And smoothness can come from actually sparring, hitting the pads etc as can coordination and that transfers better over into actual fighting as the stress you are under is closer to what you will feel in an actual fight

well with that attitude why do anything but full force spar all the time?
ive seen plenty of good pad demonstrations, bag work et etc and it all falls to crap in sparring

[Dragonzbane76]

when doing mitt work/bag work it is easy to transition it across. You are doing the actual movments of fighting when doing those. Forms have to much crap in them.

If you wanna be a good fighter you should sparr all the time, but you also need to work tech. and resistance with a moving target. Bag/ mitt work gives you that, unless the guy holding your pads does not know how to hold (moving with you/ forcing you into confrontation/ working combinations/ etc.)

nothing wrong with forms imo, old people do it in the park all the time. But you don't see them fighting. I guess forms do have a purpose they help old people stay younger

[Frost]

my money would be on bas in a fight

so again......

really..umm ok now i know you are joking

[Frost]

well with that attitude why do anything but full force spar all the time?
ive seen plenty of good pad demonstrations, bag work et etc and it all falls to crap in sparring

who said full force all the time? you can spar at 50% to work technique and still get the same benefits as you would from forms but also work in a partially stressful environment against a moving target

yes sometimes it all falls apart in sparing (usually when someone has their first fight because of the adrenaline dump) but I have yet to see anyone who is good at forms look half decent in a sparring match so your point is what?

[TenTigers]

Somehow I think that when kung fu was actually used by people defend their lives they got their instructors techniques and theories on how to fight from 1 on 1 hands on experience not from forms.

I find doing a form that might or might not have been passed down correctly from the originator, and even if it has it was designed by someone who had a totally different body shape than me and who comes from a different period in time when combat looked different to be very strange.

well, yeah. Originally, there would be no use for forms-for first generation students. However, if you want to pass it down any further, you need a textbook. And considering thet textebooks can get lost, stolen, destroyed, and on top of that, many teachers as well as their students were illiterate, forms are the best way to do this.
As far as your second point goes-Sure, a crap teacher is incapable of teaching anyone other than his clone. But anyone with intelligence can teach someone with a different structure, different temprament, etc.
If a technique is valid, it's valid. Period.
Sometimes there are techniques that don't work, because the person doing them cannot make them work. Crap teachers again.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TT, makes a valid point.
Add to that, forms were for the time, the best way to not only catalog a system but also to have a student do solo training to keep his skill level as high as he could.
Friendly sparring didn't really exist outside of "sets" and going to a local gym to work out with the guys wasn't an everyday option like today.
Forms allowed the student to apply what he was taught, get a workout and even add his own "flavour" to the system.
They served and in many ways, still serve a important purpose.
Forms were not a substitute for fighting, nor where they a substitute for equipment work, they were just a part of the equation.
Are they outdated?
Perhaps, it truly depends on what you want out of your chosen MA.

[TenTigers]

when doing mitt work/bag work it is easy to transition it across. You are doing the actual movments of fighting when doing those. Forms have to much crap in them.

If you wanna be a good fighter you should sparr all the time, but you also need to work tech. and resistance with a moving target. Bag/ mitt work gives you that, unless the guy holding your pads does not know how to hold (moving with you/ forcing you into confrontation/ working combinations/ etc.)

nothing wrong with forms imo, old people do it in the park all the time. But you don't see them fighting. I guess forms do have a purpose they help old people stay younger

You are still basing your argument on a false as$umption as if it's truth.
What don't you get? Forms are not what you think they are for.
Either you can't read, can't understand, or you have been brainwashed by crap teachers for so long, you cannot let go of your belief system.


Not to defend HW108, but one thing he said did actually hold some truth:
95% of the teachers out there taught crap-and people lapped it up like it was gold. The problem is, nobody wants to be told that what they've been doing for their entire life is basically crap. I learned a heckuvalot of crap from very well-known, famous "Masters"-highly respected among their peers in the CMA community. We all did, and it's still going on.

[Dragonzbane76]

You are still basing your argument on a false as$umption as if it's truth.
Either you can't read, can't understand, or you have been brainwashed by crap teachers for so long, you cannot let go of your belief system.

not really my argument... my opinion would better describe it. Like i said IMO forms are a passed down set of instructions that were not that good in the first place and over time have gotten worse.

And yes i've had some bad teachers and i've had some good ones.

What don't you get? Forms are not what you think they are for.

what don't i get? thats it theres nothing to get. I get no advancement from forms therefore I think they are a waste of time. It's my opinion if you don't like don't listen.
Forms are exactly what I think they are... an empty platform, teaching empty concepts.

if you do forms good for you. my opinion stands though.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

You are still basing your argument on a false as$umption as if it's truth.
What don't you get? Forms are not what you think they are for.
Either you can't read, can't understand, or you have been brainwashed by crap teachers for so long, you cannot let go of your belief system.


Not to defend HW108, but one thing he said did actually hold some truth:
95% of the teachers out there taught crap-and people lapped it up like it was gold. The problem is, nobody wants to be told that what they've been doing for their entire life is basically crap. I learned a heckuvalot of crap from very well-known, famous "Masters"-highly respected among their peers in the CMA community. We all did, and it's still going on.

So what exactly are the purpose of forms than? Catalog movements, solo training if you don't have partners or equipment. I get that. You make the statement that 95 % of the teachers out there taught crap and that you learned crap from so called Masters, what was the crap? Forms? You don't make a lot of sense in what you are trying to say. I will freely say forms are crap because they are of no positive consequence in regards to fighting. Seventeen years of training in TMA and combat sports tells me this. That does not mean they are not beneficial in some way to other people, but I don't care about other people and what they want, I care about what I want. It all depends on individuality and what one's expectations are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let this be made very clear, NO ONE is saying that you need forms to learn how to fight, that is not the case.
Many MA have no forms and produce great fighters.

I don't follow the common held belief that 95% ( or any %) of the TCMA teacher are crap, I think that people find what they are looking for.
Sure some of the blame falls on those that teach, but also on the students.

On a side note, IF 95% is crap than the blame can also fall on the 5% that isn't because "no one" knows where "the good stuff" is ( Not true) and those that have it, don't show it, so they are as much to blame for the crap as the proleferators of said crap.

Its nice to feel all warm and fuzzy because "we have the real kung fu", but that is a real pile of steaming horse****.

[TenTigers]

So what exactly are the purpose of forms than? Catalog movements, solo training if you don't have partners or equipment.
.

catalogue movements, partly.
Solo training if you don't have partners or equipment? Never. Again, that is crap info is due to crap teachers. Let it go.
If you don't have partners or equipment, you can't train fighting. Period.
Developmental forms are a completely different catagory-but these are very few in number, and you are not discussing these.

[TenTigers]

I don't follow the common held belief that 95% ( or any %) of the TCMA teacher are crap, I think that people find what they are looking for.
Sure some of the blame falls on those that teach, but also on the students.

On a side note, IF 95% is crap than the blame can also fall on the 5% that isn't because "no one" knows where "the good stuff" is ( Not true) and those that have it, don't show it, so they are as much to blame for the crap as the proleferators of said crap.

quoted for truth

there are some amazing pratitioners out there who for some reason, known only to themselves, chose to let their skill die with them.

[bawang]

the next generation of kung fu people need to make a difference and bring change
dont teach for greed dont keep bad students just to milk their monies

sifus in america need to beat their students with sticks and yell at them


my opinion is the state of kung fu today, its better to teach for free, then you can choose to teach who u want and not have to compromise